81 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Carrioncrows, on 12 March 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

Raven.

Tried and proven, the arms on the raven intercept missiles far more often than the arms on the commando, so even though the commando is firing an extra "*** hat no talent cheese I win button cursed ******** worm ridden filth" missile, the raven would soak more damage.

The "Buck Fudder tracking easy mode worst decision in MWO history" missiles of the raven always seem to track directly into the LT or RT of the commando even when fired directly facing.

If its a Raven that can't use his lasers ( a lot of them) the commando, if its a light pilot that can aim, Raven.

Otherwise getting the drop is huge, you can pretty much mangle a raven before he knows you are there, then its just a matter of surviving the circle jerk.

[Jestun]

Havok1978, on 13 March 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

wellll. considering i have the raven, commando, spider mastered and am equally adapt at killing raven 3L;s in all 3 of them..
but whatever.
and as far as your infinate wisdom there jetsun, the com 3d is an ecm mech and this is a comparison of ecm mechs..
and why yes.. i AM a troll.. however, the things I say also hold water.
cockpits are also universally 18dmg.

people who dont learn to play a mech to its strengths are the "worst type of player"
trying to say that each mech should have equal characteristics so in essence only a cosmetic differance exists between them are what make the game stale.

oh and heres a pro-tip.
for com-d load it with srm's not streaks, a med pulse laser, XL 195, max the armor.
dont circle strafe unless the com is ready to alpha its missles, then simply run Z forms and figure 8's thru un-even terrian.

Grats on having leet skills.

Leet skills are not a requirement for being a beta tester, nor for discussing balance.

[BigJim]

Havok1978, on 13 March 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

depends on the pilot. something is only overpowered if you keep using the same tactics and arent smart enuff to adapt.

the crying about being thrashed in the same manner by the same mech simply proves your own super leet tecnique clearly is flawed.

a mathmatical advantage means little cept on paper

I'm not using maths, I'm using experience.
Lots and lots of experience, almost 4 & a half thousand matches' worth of experience (in Lights, since Open beta, not even counting closed).

(assuming a true 1v1, both mechs fresh)
Equal pilots - Raven wins.
More skilled commando pilot - Raven wins.
Significantly more skilled Commando pilot - Raven wins.
Utterly godlike Commando pilot vs inexperienced Raven pilot - Now it's a fight.

That said, the exact same comparison can be made of both the Raven and Commando vs any non-ECM/Streak light the way the game is now..

Gimme a Cicada, and I'll give your Raven a damn good fight, and will tend to win about 60/40 (assuming fresh, and I choose the battleground or can manoeuvre to where I want to fight), but Lights? No way.

Edited by BigJim, 13 March 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[Havok1978]

Carrioncrows, on 13 March 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

If your reply isn't the shining exampling of the single most ignorant and asinine answer on all of the MWO forums, well...I have yet to find one that is.

The flight time of a streak missile is 200m a sec. Exactly how much cover do you think you can move behind in that time frame?

Streak Missiles out of a Raven-3L are extremely tightly packed and in the same location which means they hit their target they same location. That's a AC10 shot from the Raven that is impossible to dodge.

I'm sure there is the once in a blue moon when the attacker gets lazy and launches at you while there is a building between the two of you, but if that's the skill you encounter when fighting people perhaps I need to TANK my ELO so I can play with your rabble.

I have some self respect and I sure as **** don't play Mechwarrior to make a cookie cutter mech like everyone else, nor do I take a "No Talent" 1.5 ton "I Win" button and have the gall to consider myself better than someone else.

I enjoy playing different mechs and when it comes to lights that means everything from a commando, spider to a 4X raven. Now which one of those light mechs can repeated take an AC10 shots?

Because it's not like you can outrun them since speed is all capped at 150 kph.

These thoughts might occur to most people and they consider it before opening their mouth to speak.

You Sir are a Troll, Kindly remove yourself from the conversation until you can contribute something meaningful.

and this, LoL as stated above.... in this aspect jetsun is right... use skill to overcome streaks... and before telling someone to remove themselves from the convo maybe you should bring somethng to contribute aswell instead of repeating the same cookie cutter manuvers and expecting it to work as applied to all mech.. clearly if your caught out in the open then urdoinitwrong to begin with.

Jestun, on 13 March 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

Grats on having leet skills.

Leet skills are not a requirement for being a beta tester, nor for discussing balance.

i dont have leet skills i have a brain and i use it..
and making every mech the same isnt balance... rofl what are you 12?

[Livewyr]

3L, simply more armor.. (even if you don't count the magic hitboxes)

[stjobe]

As someone who's a self-proclaimed Commando lover (1000+ drops), I'd say that the Raven has all the advantages in this fight.

It's basically the same fight as Commando vs Jenner before the Raven (and ECM) was introduced.

The Raven/Jenner is 10 tons heavier, sports more weapons and armour, and it's faster.

Over say 100 fights, the Raven/Jenner would win the vast majority of them (assuming 1v1 and equal pilot skill).

That actually highlights one of my main gripes with the current incarnation of MWO: 'Mechs at the top of their weight class are always better than the lighter ones in the same weight class.

[Havok1978]

BigJim, on 13 March 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

I'm not using maths, I'm using experience.
Lots and lots of experience, almost 4 & a half thousand matches' worth of experience (in Lights, since Open beta, not even counting closed).

(assuming a true 1v1, both mechs fresh)
Equal pilots - Raven wins.
More skilled commando pilot - Raven wins.
Significantly more skilled Commando pilot - Raven wins.
Utterly godlike Commando pilot vs inexperienced Raven pilot - Now it's a fight.

That said, the exact same comparison can be made of both the Raven and Commando vs any non-ECM/Streak light the way the game is now..

Gimme a Cicada, and I'll give your Raven a damn good fight, and will tend to win about 60/40 (assuming fresh, and I choose the battleground or can manoeuvre to where I want to fight), but Lights? No way.

you sir i believe would be willing to duel me yes? I'm a Ghost Bear, I believe us to be allies to some extent so we could set something up if you wish?

and btw isnt this just another raven 3L is overpowered thread with a new skin? not that there isnt 30k of them already cuz ppl keep reading the same playbook over and over...

Edited by Havok1978, 13 March 2013 - 04:36 AM.

[Zakie Chan]

They both lose. The non cookie cutter pilots always win, even if they lose.

[CDLord HHGD]

Too much of a tonnage difference skews the favor to the Raven. I'm sure there are Commando pilots out there who eat Ravens for lunch, but they are not the majority,.

[BigJim]

Havok1978, on 13 March 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

you sir i believe would be willing to duel me yes? I'm a Ghost Bear, I believe us to be allies to some extent so we could set something up if you wish?

and btw isnt this just another raven 3L is overpowered thread with a new skin? not that there isnt 30k of them already cuz ppl keep reading the same playbook over and over...

That would be cool mate, I'd be up for a friendly some time.
When I was recording the footage for my Cicada - Love Bug video I spent ages trying to get Ravens to 1v1 me but alas it was a rare thing, as I get to the grid and get ganked by a pair of Ravens and a gang of surm-cats..

Ps; I think you're right, in that this is basically a veiled Raven=OP thread, but as it happens I tend to agree that it is.
Not due to the Raven per-se, but because of it's confluence of Streaks and ECM, in that order.

Personally I don't find the hitboxes to be particularly bad, I mean, nobody cries about the hitboxes on a 2X and 4X, so they can't be bad enough to be a massive factor.

Edited by BigJim, 13 March 2013 - 04:54 AM.

[Yokaiko]

BigJim, on 13 March 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Ps; I think you're right, in that this is basically a veiled Raven=OP thread, but as it happens I tend to agree that it is.
Not due to the Raven per-se, but because of it's confluence of Streaks and ECM, in that order.

You forgot stupid hit boxes.

The Raven essentially 2nd lines the rest of the light mechs, veiled or not that would be the definition of unbalanced, at least to me. You can make the argument for the Jenner-D, but it takes a hell of a pilot against a mediocre raven to win that fight, simply put the performance of every 40 ton and below mech is dependent on there not being ravens (or worse more ravens) on the other team.

That it has went this long is a bit silly.

Edited by Yokaiko, 13 March 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[Arete]

The raven has weird hitboxes, more armor, and more firepower.

If you put them up 1vs1 in a flat open space, the raven wins unless the pilot is complete ***** and can't hit with his lasers.

In a real game, a good commando can beat a 3L by using the terrain to break locks. But it takes some skill and a bit of luck to pull it off.

[VXJaeger]

Raven.
I've never lost to a single 2D, ever. 2 simultaniously is a big problem, and against 3 Raven must fight like greased Wolverine, but one is just a snack.

[Yanlowen Cage]

I would have to go with the raven 65% of the time. I am a commando "cheese" pilot. But, I must say that I regularly hunt and kill 3L's. How do I do this? No idea. Really. But I do know that a raven has a better torso twist the a commando. But I seem to have noticed that a commando can out turn a raven. Usually I wind up smack behind the raven and do not let go till he's dead. But that has got me killed on many occasion. Becuase the raven that I am so fucused on lead me right back into a splatter pault. o.O .So I would give the edge to the raven, but if you get on is butt, alot of pilots seem to freak.
Now to defend commando cheese. Really guys? Atlasi, cicada, raven, commando. All ecm and all cheesy. But in this new and improved world of ecm and elo, you have to play what you can to get what you can. And if you believe that commandos are cheese, then run vs a splat cat or a splat stalker. The mechs themselves, "I believe", are not the issue. I believe the issue is game balance. And those things that I believe would fix game balance are oppossed almost totally by the players in cases or not implemented properly by the Devs. That indeed is another topic though.

[Goldsensei]

It always amazes me that people make arguments for commandos/jenners/spiders over ravens. I totally love my JR7-D, and my COM-2D was okay, but lets not kid ourselves.

Half of the time it boils down to 'If I have vastly superior piloting skills compared to the raven then I have a chance at killing them. If they're not incompetent, I don't.'

If you can kill a raven pilot in a commando/spider, then you could most likely do it more efficiently in a raven yourself - or at least more safely.

I have a secret love affair with my JR7-D, and it's amazing at what I use it for, but if you challenged me to a 1 v 1 in a 3L, I'd be dropping in my 3L as well.

[BigJim]

Yokaiko, on 13 March 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

You forgot stupid hit boxes.

I didn't mate, I just don't fully agree.

BigJim, on 13 March 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Personally I don't find the hitboxes to be particularly bad, I mean, nobody cries about the hitboxes on a 2X and 4X, so they can't be bad enough to be a massive factor.

Are the hit boxes less than ideal for dealing continual damage the the same spot?
Yes.

Are they utterly mental like they were back when the hitboxes of lights could be suspended in the air, or pushed out a few mech-lengths in front? No.

The hitboxes are basically a design decision, like the broad side torso hitboxes on Awsomes and Phracts, or the narrow side torsos on Catapults, but it's not bugged like it was, and it just seems to me that many people still carry on like they are bugged still.

Quote

That it has went this long is a bit silly.

I'm in full agreement.

[stjobe]

BigJim, on 13 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

[Raven Hit boxes]

They're still wonky - it takes a lot longer to chew through a Raven's armour than it does a Jenner's - or even a Cicadas; at least from my experience.

That said, I had this most wonderful moment last week when my CN9-A triple-ASRM-6 brawler came up right behind a 3L that wasn't paying attention, and standing still to boot. One pull of the trigger and 18 SRMs later it was a smoking wreck on the ground

[Ryokens leap]

Nobody wins.

[Esplodin]

Jestun, on 13 March 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

The same "skill-based" counter as any other weapon, move move behind cover.

1 sec flight time for 10 damage? I ain't dodging that, and neither are you. I pilot a spider like I'm coated in Teflon, but still have had the streak hula-hoop of death many, many times (where you dodge successfully, but streaks always hit so they whirl around your torso for a bit at impossible angles and nuke you anyway.) You don't dodge STREAKS you dodge the LOCK, so if that's what you are saying then I agree. However, modules make that almost impossible these days.

Streaks are a schmitty weapon precisely because an exceptional pilot in a light other then 3L will get beat by any mouth-breather in a max cheese 3L almost* every time.

* 1 out of 100 where this isn't true doesn't make streaks any less of a broken of a weapons system who's sole reason for being OP was to counter lagshield.

[Yokaiko]

BigJim, on 13 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

I didn't mate, I just don't fully agree.

I've bombed a fresh raven with a boomcat, and somehow managed to hit three boxes with two rounds. That mech only has two weapons, AC20 #1 and AC20 #2 (mount 51 and 52 for you navy nerds).

Not only did the damn thing live it still had armor. .....and if I had a MC for every time I managed to lob lethal numbers of PPC/AC/gauss rounds BETWEEN their ******* legs I'd never spend a penny on this game again.

They are broken, they are broken when I drive it, and they are broken when I'm shooting at them. The ONLY hit box that works right on the entire mech is the RT.

Edited by Yokaiko, 13 March 2013 - 05:25 AM.