81 replies to this topic

[danust]

If they would immediately go fight at the beginning of matches, everybody else wins.

[icey]

the '10 tons' difference actually has a lot less impact than the weapon hardpoints.

Defense - 3:1 armour hitpoint comparison (front, as combatants will be facing each other - as soon as either pilot turns his back to run, his survival odds decrease dramatically)

COM-2D hitpoints:
CT: 24 armour, 16 structure (40HP)
ST: 18 armour, 12 structure (30HP)

RVN-3L:
CT: 33 armour, 22 structure (55HP) - 37% higher
ST: 24 armour, 16 structure (40HP) - 33% higher

Attack - Commando can do 50% more damage in a streak race (3 SSRM to 2) - more, if you include the off-cycle firing times from the single shot tube on the 3L delaying your cooldown slightly. before HSR, lasers were not a factor in this duel as neither pilot would reliably do much damage with them.

Now that lasers can hit the Commando, the Raven does much more damage, and this is easily a 7-3 or 8-2 matchup for the Raven. The Commando's single laser is still practically useless against the Raven unless it stands still due to hitbox damage spread/mitigation.

edit: you'll notice both mechs are capable of killing each other in 3 streak salvos, assuming they all hit side torso. 2 salvos, if they can hit rear - thats why one of these mechs appearing behind you was so often fatal.

Previously, it was much more about who got the first shot, as these duels were purely about landing streaks. I rarely died to Ravens in my 2D, but pilot awareness had a lot more to do with deciding the winner, even when the commando had the advantage on paper. A Raven with a good enough ping or skill with leading lasers could overcome the streak damage deficit and kill 2Ds all day.

That said, if you're still playing either of these two mechs outside of 8-man, chances are you're a terrible person, and not much better as a player

Edited by icey, 13 March 2013 - 06:52 AM.

[Damocles69]

God himself couldn't beat a good 3l in a light fight. Join em or die

Edited by Damocles69, 13 March 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[Arete]

In all honesty though, I don't think a commando SHOULD be able to beat a raven in an equally skilled 1vs1 fight. Even if they fix the hitboxes, going commando vs raven is like going head-on 1vs1 with an awesome against an atlas. You're outgunned and outarmored. Don't do it.

The problem with the commando is that it doesn't really have any chance of getting away from the 3L. A slower raven is OK, because the commando can disengage. A 3L is just as fast as a commando, so it can just kill the commando whatever he does. The only thing a commando has to it's advantage is turning rate, but that's not much.

[Zeus X]

I would say 75% of the time the raven will win.

But that 25% with a proper 2D loadout of 3 Streaks, and a pilot who knows how to use ECM.

My buddies and I have trollmando's for a reason, and they work fairly well against ravens, and even more so when you are running up to 4.

1v1 raven wins

anything else it's a lets see how this turns out

Pilots make all the difference.

[stjobe]

Arete, on 13 March 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

The problem with the commando is that it doesn't really have any chance of getting away from the 3L. A slower raven is OK, because the commando can disengage. A 3L is just as fast as a commando, so it can just kill the commando whatever he does. The only thing a commando has to it's advantage is turning rate, but that's not much.

Continuing my gripe from my previous post, this is the main issue. The current engine rules and restrictions mean that within a weight class, heavier 'mechs may well be faster than lighter 'mechs - as evidenced by the Commando, Raven-3L, and Jenner.

There needs to be some balancing between 'mechs within a weight class so that the heaviest 'mech of the weight class (in this case, the 35-ton Jenner and Raven) doesn't automatically outclass the lighter (25-ton Commando and soon 20-ton Flea) in every regard. Else we risk getting to the point where the only worthwhile 'mechs are the 35-ton, 55-ton, 75-ton, and 100-ton ones.

Personally I think PGI went wrong when they chose to implement an engine cap per weight class instead of one per 5-ton weight. Sure, that's a lot more variables, but it would enable lighter 'mechs within a weight class to be faster than the heavier so they have at least a single advantage over their heavier brethren.

Edited by stjobe, 13 March 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[Butane9000]

Raven 3L every time. Better hit boxes for more evenly spread damage, better damage output, better armor for more survivability. It's just a better unit for 1v1.

[Kraven Kor]

In my experience, the 3 streaks of the 2D vs. the 2 on the 3L gives the 2D the upper hand, given pilots of equal skill who know how to minimize laser damage to themselves.

The Raven 3L definitely *should* win in a 1v1 but generally, in my experience, does not.

[Fenris Krinkovich]

RiceyFighter, on 12 March 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I think both mechs are cheese because they rely on streaks and ECM. I would think the Commando would win just because it takes more skill than raven...

I have always been astounded that "it takes more skill to use it equally well" is considered a benefit.

[WANTED]

I don't run streaks for this very reason on any of my Commando variants. Like one poster said earlier, You can turn inside them if you slow down and get on their 6. Then I hit them with SRM6, They freak out that they are actually being hit by missles then and run off or let their buddy join in and kill you ( which is usually another Raven ) 1 vs 1 though usually always Raven wins. They have better armor, the speed to run you down and missiles. Due to those advantages, I stay away from them as much as possible and go for heavy to assault mechs and nail them up close from behind while they are busy trying to kill my team mates.

Note. I did use to run streaks but got sick of the lack of use due to any more than 1 ECM mech showing up. I'd rather be able to fire dummy missiles when I want too.

Overall I love my fast Commando's and will take them over the Raven any day. I bought a Raven and never used him and raided him for his XL Engine and parts. My Commando's go 136 kph and soon will go 149.6 once I get the Speed Tweak.

[Carrioncrows]

Havok1978, on 13 March 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

and this, LoL as stated above.... in this aspect jetsun is right... use skill to overcome streaks... and before telling someone to remove themselves from the convo maybe you should bring somethng to contribute aswell instead of repeating the same cookie cutter manuvers and expecting it to work as applied to all mech.. clearly if your caught out in the open then urdoinitwrong to begin with.

What cookie cutter "Maneuvers"?

What skills are you talking about, is there a magic I take no damage button I missed.

Evasive action is pointless as the missiles can't be outran nor can they be evaded, short of operator error on the aggressor's part, "firing at a mech taking a corner" they are not going to miss.

All lights are capped at the same speed. At best you move the same speed, at worst the light mech with streaks is FASTER than you. The only recourse is to run like a ***** for your teammates, if that's skill. Count me out.

Short of aim-boting there is no way in hell can you pump out the same damage with the same precision.

Yes there are times when I can use surprise to jump out of the bushes with my Commando 3A and put 2 meds and 2 SRM6's into a Raven-3L, but at best you are forced to stand still to maximize your accuracy and try and out damage them which more time than not doesn't work as you get more accurate with your shots by standing still his accuracy goes up as he gets to hit a stationary target.

So just to clear it up

You can't outrun him
You can't dodge the streaks
You can't out shoot him unless you use Aim bot.

I don't dispute happy accidents happen, and occasionally you get lucky or he's already crippled enough that you can tank the damage, but by far and by large you end up die'n in a fire, In a matter of moments.

It sounds grand to make big statements like "Use yer SKILL", or "YOURDOINGITWRONG" or something so generalized as to be both useless, uninformative and inflammatory. Btw, both Firefox and chrome come built in with a spell checker.

The point is: There is no SKILL based counter.

Every weapon in the game you can use evasion to reduce the chance of being hit by that weapon except for streaks.

So yeah it's a problem and it needs fixed.

[von Pilsner]

Assuming both pilots are equal, the Raven with it's funky hitboxes will win.

[miscreant]

Depends on the pilot >> 90%.

The other 10% is purely the mech - in which case I go with the Raven 3L.

[FupDup]

The Commando's armor is made of some mixture containing cardboard and aluminum foil.

As a 3L, if you can Medium Laser + Streak a Commando in the back once, his rear CT armor will be stripped and his internals will be yellow. After that, just shoot his CT once from either side with both of your weapons and he's a goner (assuming your ML don't miss too badly). It's pretty one-sided unless the 3L is a moron or badly damaged.


Fun fact: the Commando's rear CT hitbox takes up virtually the whole backside of the unit; its rear LT and RT are minuscule. You would pretty much have to make a deliberate effort to not hit a Commando's rear CT lol.

Edited by FupDup, 13 March 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

A commando who knows what they're doing won't give the raven the option to kill it. But 1 v 1 it's no contest.

[Scraper]

Same skill pilot? Raven every time, however... Most 3L pilots are unskilled and in it for the easy grind of cbills, so I voted the Commando... Most Ravens I see aren't breaking 100kph and are easy kills for lasers.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The extra SSRM on the Commando should not make up for the superior armor and extra lasers of the 3L.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 13 March 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[Slicer]

In a straight up fight between equal pilots the Raven will eat the Commando. Although i have taken out plenty of Cravens with my Trollmando by breaking lock via out turnning them. Those arm mounted streaks extend lock past visibility (his arms dont swivel far enough) allowing me to streak once or maybe twice more before totally losing lock. This is irrespective of Target Decay as I was crushing Cravens in the past before that pilot skill showed up.

However in battle we never fight fair, instead smart lights are both scouting and setting up ambush positions on opposing lights. With weight matching thrown out the window scouts have to be ultra ultra cautious on where they go since we now have no clue how many scouts the opposing team has. I've found that while Cravens are damn good at everything, in scout ambush scenarios none is better than a Trollmando. Smaller profile means I can hide better before i pop out and jack up an enemy scout from behind or the flank. Having 3 streaks mean i shoot a heavier guided salvo and not need to aim as carefully in the ensuing dogfight so i can focus more on fancy driving.

I've driven ECM light mechs to death to have gotten a real good feel at what they can and cant do. The smart light isnt out there to be WTFBBQPWNing everything in sight dishing 1k damage (a severe issue with these bandwagon Cravens). Its job is to scout, light mech ambush, rove to trouble spots (quick cap defense, ecm support, snipers, LRM boats harassment) and achieve light superiority. Oftentimes in games i'm the sole survivor (or have another fast mover buddy who stuck with me) against 2-6 surviving enemy with their lights dead, but I did what i was supposed to do and my team still wins. On conquest i just run about and cap with no enemy mech able to catch me, or i was already taking out the enemy cap with my cap module during the grand melee and wasted the enemy lights who i ambushed while i was capping.

Yes... in general the Craven is better. But the Trollmando can do the job of the light just as well, u just cant be the harbinger of destruction that a Craven can potentially be.

[Zordicron]

LOLRaven. Hit box nonsense FTW.

A better poll would be :
Who will win!!
Raven3L cheesemaster
OR
Hunchback with AC 20, 2 med lasers or whatever you want besides the 9 med laser variant.

It would almost be fair with the hunchie having the extra armor and 3 times the firepower.

[Sheraf]

I say both. When I used my Raven 3L to fight the Commando 2D a while ago. We both died as our streaks hit each other