448 replies to this topic

[Broceratops]

we're never going to beat the clans with all these pansy atlas pilots

[kalami]

LeMans, on 13 March 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

As a person who's run an Atlas in many many matches, here are the problems I've run into, mostly mentioned before in this thread:

I'm going in! (exiting forest colony tunnel with 2 -3 friendly M/H mechs standing within 20 meters, and 2-3 enemies waiting outside)
The rest of my team stays in the tunnel while I die fighting the enemy, then trickle out and die after.

I'm going over! (frozen city ridgeline, 3-4 enemy waiting, 3-5 us in one spot on edge ready)
Rest of my mates stand still and don't follow me over, I die in 20 seconds, then they trickle over and die one at a time, or they die in a counter rush after I go down.

(Team tells me:) We're going across lake to lower city! (River City, I started on far left on low end)
OTW! (On The Way) By the time I get to the water edge the rest of my team is 500+ meters away, I get killed by 2 lights and medium who rush up river to my back/side, my call for help is ignored.

These are not uncommon scenarios, unfortunately.
Everyone has some amount of responsibility to stay alive as long as possible to continue to do damage to the enemy. An Atlas by definition is not your meatshield by default. If I choose to make use of cover (almost always), snipe using my Med/LR weapons, and then face the enemy when I feel the situation is appropriate, I am playing to my strengths. No where does it say my job is to stand in the middle of a field with no cover screaming Kill ME, kill ME!

If I do decide to use my Atlas to break a stalemate, and I cue you to the timing (arguably if you can see me you should be figuring it out yourself), then suddenly YOU have a responsibility to make use of the 15-30 seconds I expect to survive to provide the break. There should be roughly a 2 count, and then everyone else near should be rolling in around/behind me, forcing the enemy to make decisions about who to shoot. If they shoot at me and continue to do so, and you (my team) have not killed 2 of the enemy while I die YOU have FAILED in YOUR role. Yes, really.

How often I'm willing to sacrifice myself to provide a team advantage hinges greatly on the support I got in my three most previous attempts (that's the way my brain makes this decision). So, if I am failing to provide this break for you, it's probably because of the lack of support I received in those attempts. I don't mind dying, but who likes to die pointlessly?

It's easy to point at one mech or weight class and say they aren't doing their job (regardless of agreement on what that job is) but doing so fails to recognize the responsibility of the other players on the team to provide support appropriately for that job.

Then there is the fact that the number of times I've been thanked for deciding to die providing the tactical break is exactly NIL. No one ever says: great timing breaking the stalemate, or thanks for sacrificing yourself so we could win. Mostly because people don't recognize it when it happens due to their lack of understanding of tactics, even when it went well. They just assume they are heroes because they got a cpl kills, too bad that moron atlas died...

Also, I fail to see the logic that if I managed to keep my mech in decent shape while damaging the enemy while you expose yourself to multi-enemy fire and get shredded, that somehow you are the superior player and doing your job, while I am failing in mine. Plus there is the fact that many matches have been won by that semi-fresh shooting-from-cover friendly, who manages to mop up the overly damaged enemy mechs left from the brawl they might have missed for no more reason than relative speeds, or a missed turn, etc. I have seen that tactic intentionally used in the past against my team, where they keep an assault safe till the end and he comes out fresh and hoses a bunch of people, sometimes winning the match.

I digress, but felt the need to provide counterpoint to the OP complaint.

You guys are over stating what the original comments were; I don't think anyone wants their Atlas to just stand in a field taking shots or stompy stomping by themselves to death. I think most were simply saying that as an Atlas, by design you can take more punishment than my HBK standing next to you therefore you are by default "my protector" and I am your force multiplier/protector from lights and mediums.

edit: Honestly thats how I see it; to each their own. But I will continue to hump my Atlai's leg in all matches that have them.

Edited by kalami, 13 March 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[beniliusbob]

Literally the most fun thing in this game is being a DDC brawler and running into some Atmoron firing LRMs.

LOOOOOOOL SRM'd and AC20'd into the ground.

(Granted I used to play my RS with LRMs but I learned that was the wrong way.)

[LeMans]

An atlas under focused fire lasts about 5 whole seconds longer than a lower weight class mech before it's cored. Cover is everyone's friend. I will admit I was using hyperbole for effect there, but I do see atlas pilot's go stand in the middle of spaces with no cover quite routinely, and often they die there.

[shabowie]

Do I come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?

[Moonsavage]

The Atlas seems a little bulky... compare it to the Awesome and add a % based on weight difference and the inertia is crippling.
The conferred lack of maneuverability makes the Atlas a deathtrap and Heavy or Light mechs are waaay better at drawing (and surviving) enemy fire.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Onmyoudo, on 13 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

An Atlas is a damage soak. It has the most armour, it has the most durability and in a lot of cases it has ECM. If you are not soaking damage, you are not doing your job. Did you get 600 damage? Great. Did you get 2 kills? Well done. Did the rest of your team die because they got alpha struck to death while you were playing coy buggers in the buildings? Then you're next, bucko, and the game has been lost. If you're winning, then it's likely because someone else has been soaking up the damage that you should have been sharing.

Due to the nature of how MWO works, an Atlas is always needed on the front lines. Massive burst damage and concentrated fire can and will annihilate members of your team that, if able to actually fire their weapons (perhaps due to the enemy team instead firing at the large 100 ton behemoth striding towards them) will allow your team to do more damage overall than you alone can manage. 400 + 400 is better than the 600 you will do by yourself.

Your Atlas is not an LRM boat. Get a Catapult. Your Atlas is not a sniper. Get a Stalker. If you want to use those weapons, by all means do so - on your way towards the battle lines. Your mech is one of the most important in any game you play and you must use its strengths to help your team succeed. Because it is your team that is important - if you yourself get blown up with only 200 damage done, but succeed in drawing enough fire to let your team win the match, then your role has been fulfilled and you can congratulate yourself on a job well done. That is your purpose. Start doing it.

Disclaimer: a Stalker could also arguably fill this role, but for several obvious reasons is not as effective.

Utter nonsense. I've been an Atlas pilot since about 1987 and have used the ATL7 (all variants) to the exclusion of all other chassis since closed beta. What this means? I know more about the Atlas than you do.

The concept of a "tank" or "meat shield" as is frequently seen in MMO's such as Guild Wars has no analogue in MWO. None at all. Though the Atlas has more armour than any other mech it certainly isn't significantly above the protection of other assault mechs. MWO is currently ruled by DPS and burst damage ability, certainly not armour values. Additionally the Atlas is hard-point deficient compared to all other assault mechs and has real difficulty in being able to output an alpha-strike proportionate to it's size and weight.

The Atlas is also the size of most city blocks and is often the focus for enemy fire. A meaningless charge at the enemy (a stately one at that - this is not by any means a fast mech) is a recipy for certain and very rapid death. I have many times run in to a pair of splat cats being cloaked by a -D-DC. Result? Cored literally in under 5 seconds. In that time I've been able to do, at a very liberal estimate, perhaps 100 - 120 damage spread across a couple of enemy components. This has done next to no good for my team.

The LAST thing the Atlas pilot should to is to charge in to battle. The role of the Atlas pilot is to engage cautiously until a point is reached where decisive employment of the protection available and the damage possible will be of maximum use to the team. Heavy mechs with their far superior manuverability are the chassis that should lead the charge. Knowing when and where to engage is a very specialist skill and one that is absolutely vital for the Atlas pilot to learn. Do it wrong and the slow speed of the mech means that it's impossible to disengage from a fight. Do it correctly and you can make an absolutely crucial difference to the progress of the match.

When PUGing or playing in a 4-man the Atlas pilot is often left far behind the rest of the team who seem happy to offer assault pilots ****** all support as they charge off in to the distance. Playing with an organised 8-man team is of course different. There is an argument to be made there for the Atlas pilot to "take the middle" as you're guaranteed adequate support.

So the message to pilots of other weight classes is this - if you want your Atlas pilot to soak damage for you then you damned well better be prepared to stick with him or her and support them. Leaving them hundreds of metres behind the lines as they haplessly fall victim to a bunch of cheaters cheesers in their damage-immune 3Ls is not how matches are won.

[Broceratops]

shabowie, on 13 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Do I come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?

8/10 comeback right here

[Felbombling]

I see one major problem with this post and the tactics suggested for Atlas pilots... at some point in the future, won't some keyboard warrior start slap talking me and request to compare K/D ratios? If I'm taking one for the team, will the troll not win the argument based off the K/D ratio comparison? What to do... what to do?

[Alecto22]

I am going to agree with most of the Atlas pilots here even though I am not one myself, one of the worst things an Atlas can do is see himself as a tank. The mech moves so slow it makes targeting the CT cake, it cannot get to cover in a reasonable amount of time, and certainly will not benefit from any lag shielding effects. An atlas taking concentrated team fire is going to die in under 10 seconds, and last significantly less time than mediums and lights.

I will boil it down this way. I'd rather be on a team that protects the Atlas than on a team that's Atlas tries (and fails) to protect everyone else.

Edited by Alecto22, 13 March 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Coolant]

to OP, what is "coy buggers"?

[Sir Wulfrick]

StaggerCheck, on 13 March 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

I see one major problem with this post and the tactics suggested for Atlas pilots... at some point in the future, won't some keyboard warrior start slap talking me and request to compare K/D ratios? If I'm taking one for the team, will the troll not win the argument based off the K/D ratio comparison? What to do... what to do?

Ignore them. K/D is meaningless as a metric of pilot skill. Win / loss goes some way towards being a better comparison yet still involves far too many other factors outside the control of the individual. ELO would be better, but thank God PGI decided to keep that from the players, otherwise the stat padders would have had a field day.

Logical argument and examples are the way to go - something to which I suspect stat padders are somewhat averse

Edited by Sir Wulfrick, 13 March 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[xengk]

I have no problem with LRM Atlas, as long as they are dealing damage to the opposing team consistently.

What really grinds me are Atlas with AC20 or Gauss, trying to poptart over the ridge in frozen city or caustic valley. They mossy up the slope at 50kph, fire 1 or 2 shots and reverse down at 30kph. Losing 20~30% health in the process, or worst attracting LRMboats and died to missile bukkake instantly.

But I love it when the opposing Atlas does this, as I rain 80 LRM on them.

Edited by xengk, 13 March 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[Sir Wulfrick]

xengk, on 13 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

I have no problem with LRM Atlas, as long as they are dealing damage to the opposing team consistently.

What really grinds me are Atlas with AC20 or Gauss, trying to poptart over the ridge in frozen city or caustic valley. They mossy up the slope at 50kph, fire 1 or 2 shots and reverse down at 30kph. Losing 20~30% health in the process, or worst attracting LRMboats and died to missile bukkake instantly.

This would indeed be a valid criticism and reflects poor Atlas employment.

Something I forgot to add in my previous post - piloting the Atlas is far closer to a game of chess than for example a light mech which would be more akin to an FPS.

[Byk]

An Atlas is a 100 ton weapons platform. If you want to go in and brawl with your close range arsenal, sweet, go right ahead. If you want to load up with 4 ppc's and gauss rifle and one shot people from range, awesome, please do. An Atlas does not have to be the "meatshield". Don't be ******** and go off and kill yourself because you thought the Atlas was supposed to already be on the front lines. It's the faster mech's jobs to establish the front lines and where the fighting will take place. It's the Atlas's job to arrive on said established area and kick some ***. Be that brawling/soaking damage/pushing the line, or hanging back/sniping/one shotting people. An Atlas will get dominated if it goes anywhere by itself, or take unnecessary damage pushing over ridges first. The only not OK Atlas builds are those that do no damage. You are 100 tons, please arm yourself accordingly.

[Onmyoudo]

I'm pretty pleased with the discussion value of this thread so far. That broom comeback was pretty funny, too.

At no point, however, do I suggest that an Atlas either A ) charge headfirst at the enemy without regard to their team's positions, or B ) stand in an open area and wave their arms in the air like they just don't care. Nor do I suggest C) that they die without meaning, but instead state that they should be more prepared to take damage (as ostensibly they can take more damage). Obviously all three of these points would be dumb, and even the most indignant of responses so far has highlighted that the issue is as much with the cowardly fire support mechs that should be helping them push as it is with the Atlai who are too scared to push in the first place.

So the question I must ask now is this; what is the cause of such cowardice, and what can be implemented to persuade people to stand firm in the face of fire when necessary?

P.S. Coy buggers is like silly buggers, but a bit shy.

[Starquestman]

I was under the impression that the Assault class was built to assault...
The real issue here I think is teamwork. If you're in a LRM boat, stay back and let others spot for you. You'll do your team no good dead. If you've got autocannons and lasers, go in for the kill. Don't be so eager you take on a whole lance by yourself, but don't be so shy you never poke your nose out.
Also tactical strategy - there is no leader who knows each mech's loadout and can give tactical commands. If I knew the Atlas behind me had LRMs and PPCs, I might have him fire at medium range for me to take out the enemy quicker.

I was under the impression that the Assault class was built to assault...
The real issue here I think is teamwork. If you're in a LRM boat, stay back and let others spot for you. You'll do your team no good dead. If you've got autocannons and lasers, go in for the kill. Don't be so eager you take on a whole lance by yourself, but don't be so shy you never poke your nose out.
Also tactical strategy - there is no leader who knows each mech's loadout and can give tactical commands. If I knew the Atlas behind me had LRMs and PPCs, I might have him fire at medium range for me to take out the enemy quicker.

[Royalewithcheese]

Onmyoudo, on 13 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

So the question I must ask now is this; what is the cause of such cowardice, and what can be implemented to persuade people to stand firm in the face of fire when necessary?

I don't think "standing firm" or "pushing" are as important to this game as sticking together, staying in advantageous positions, and shooting the robots without blue triangles over their heads. Atlases in particular have to play very patiently because if they deploy into a disadvantageous situation it's very hard for them to get out of that situation.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

Read OP about damage sponge-ing/tanking. Obvious mistake has made here.

Mod, please change title to: ATTENTION: RAVEN-3L PILOTS

[Elandyll]

You know what OP?

I used to think like you, and was a pure front line Brawler in my DDC. I felt guilty if not on the front line first, offering my ECM coverage for Cataphracts and other Hunbacks/ Cents/ Dragons around, allowing them to shoot their targets while the ennemy would mainly focus on me. Result? Dying among the first three (besides the stupid Light scout getting him/her-self killed within the first minute).
And then what? What good did I do my team while dead, doing no damage and providing no ECM coverage anymore, or countering the pesky 3L's coverage making them impervious to SSRMs or LRMs?

Recently, because mostly of the new Alpine map (and upcoming Desert map) I realized that a pure brawler was not really enjoyable for me anymore. I tried 1x LRM10. I am now at 2xLRM10, AC20, 1xLL and TAG., and I have not killed this well since a long time, plus I provide cover for snipers and LRMs while unloading, then heading to the front after softening up their lines.

Someone above me said it best. Even if you are a brawler these days, just soaking up damage is being a fool. You have to play smart, and being smart is avoiding damage, not dying so that your teammates can get 1 more kill before your team loses, missing both your damage and whatever other things you could do for them (ECM for a DDC).

Specific note to (new) DDC Pilots: You will die first if you try to tank. Heck, you die among firsts often enough anyway, because if the ennemy team has a half brain between them, they -will- target you first specifically once their scout finds you. Being at the tip of the front line only makes their job easier.
Unless there is a push, do NOT be first in line, and even then another assault (other Atlas type, Stalker or even Awesome) should be first in line. If the only assault, well ... Good luck I guess.
ECM Atlas generates the most hate (beside the Raven 3L, but that little guy can fend off for himself with speed and ECM, not just ECM) after a SplatCat. Do you know what is often the first words I hear in my headset when Premade-ing? "Atlas DDC on E7, Delta (D) Target. Get him."
Don't do what the OP suggests. Play smart. There is a time and place to be the Hero on the front line, even for an Atlas.

Edited by Elandyll, 13 March 2013 - 11:39 AM.