448 replies to this topic

[Viper69]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 March 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Must, Viper... I love folk who know how to wage war! Thank You!

Thank you, although my practice at it is far worse than my theory. In my old mech days I was a competent pilot/tactician, now I am a retired old sod that only remembers how to fight but cant anymore

[Timuroslav]

The only things I have to say is that
1)The Stalker is a Sentinel it's a Slow Gun platform for defending against seiges, I would not play a heavy armor mech as a sniper (that's a K/D ratio Elo preserving move)
2) Atlas who LRM is rofls (This is alos a K/D ratio ELO preserving move)

"Watch team die and my map W/L ratio plummet but Hey I got a good K/D ratio" .... Wut?! 0.o

[Brenticus]

Alistair Winter, on 13 March 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

An interesting discussion. I'm kind of on the fence on this one.

If you are right, then the Atlas is the only mech in the game that basically only has 1 role, and therefore only a few different options when it comes to weaponry. Every other mech can be outfitted as a brawler, sniper, lrm boat, etc. Except for the Atlas?

The thing is, matches can be won even without a single atlas on the team, or even a single assault mech. You just have to adjust your tactics accordingly. Especially now that there is no weight balance. The heaviest team has a significant advantage, but it doesn't always win.

In my opinion, an Atlas LRM boat isn't nearly as annoying as a lance of heavy mechs refusing to go first, or even join the fight when a medium or heavy mech is leading the charge. There are so many Puggers who are happy to watch their teammates cross the ridge, while hanging back and waiting for easier kills. Those guys are a much bigger problem than Atlas pilots who refuse to be cannon fodder.

Interesting point.

To me, even if the Atlas is doing more flanking than tanking, at some point its going to be a tank.

The Atlas doesn't always need to be at the front of every attack, however. Sometimes it's good for the heavies to soak up a little damage before your Assault rounds a corner and throws some havoc into the enemy's attack. Often times, their guns will very quickly switch to the Atlas.

So I mostly agree with OP: the Atlas' role always involves soaking up damage. The only real question is that of timing.

In the end though, if your Atlas isn't taking some of the heat (at one point or another) for his smaller metal brethren, he isn't doing his job. Your mech wasn't given all that armor to help it hide.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Royalewithcheese, on 13 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I don't think "standing firm" or "pushing" are as important to this game as sticking together, staying in advantageous positions, and shooting the robots without blue triangles over their heads. Atlases in particular have to play very patiently because if they deploy into a disadvantageous situation it's very hard for them to get out of that situation.

This gets to the point. The Atlas is so slow (unless it has such a big engine that it's damage output is severely compromised) that once engaged, it's COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE to disengage. As an Atlast pilot you have to be very careful because once you're committed there really is no way back from a mistake.

[Josef Nader]

People seem to not know what the word tank means. Tanking in regards to video game is a matter of controlling attention, not just soaking buckets of damage. I don't know a single player in this game who will ignore an Atlas unless they are being directly attacked by a more immediate threat. Even then, Atlai are -always- priority targets, so as long as the Atlas is present in the fight he -will- be the center of the fight. You can't survive by just meatheading through attacks, but you -can- control enemy aggression through careful play. The whole point of tanking is to be the guy the enemies are trying to kill, not just soaking damage. The longer you can keep their attention, the better you've done your job. Again, if you die before you've lost every section of your mech and dealt 500 or more damage, you've failed as an Atlas.

You're a tank. Be a tank. Tanking does not mean brawling. It means being the center of attention. Just like light mechs should be scouts. I don't care what you're packing, you still move faster and can cover more ground than the rest of us. We need your eyes to help us spot enemy movements. Play your role.

[PoLaR]

LRM's on an Atlas are fine.

But LRM's on an Atlas hiding behind the rest of the team drives me absolutely nuts. You know, when everyone Is dead, spectating a fresh DDC firing from 1200 meters away.

Wtf.

[Brenticus]

Elandyll, on 13 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

You know what OP?

I used to think like you, and was a pure front line Brawler in my DDC. I felt guilty if not on the front line first, offering my ECM coverage for Cataphracts and other Hunbacks/ Cents/ Dragons around, allowing them to shoot their targets while the ennemy would mainly focus on me. Result? Dying among the first three (besides the stupid Light scout getting him/her-self killed within the first minute).
And then what? What good did I do my team while dead, doing no damage and providing no ECM coverage anymore, or countering the pesky 3L's coverage making them impervious to SSRMs or LRMs?

Recently, because mostly of the new Alpine map (and upcoming Desert map) I realized that a pure brawler was not really enjoyable for me anymore. I tried 1x LRM10. I am now at 2xLRM10, AC20, 1xLL and TAG., and I have not killed this well since a long time, plus I provide cover for snipers and LRMs while unloading, then heading to the front after softening up their lines.

Someone above me said it best. Even if you are a brawler these days, just soaking up damage is being a fool. You have to play smart, and being smart is avoiding damage, not dying so that your teammates can get 1 more kill before your team loses, missing both your damage and whatever other things you could do for them (ECM for a DDC).

Specific note to (new) DDC Pilots: You will die first if you try to tank. Heck, you die among firsts often enough anyway, because if the ennemy team has a half brain between them, they -will- target you first specifically once their scout finds you. Being at the tip of the front line only makes their job easier.
Unless there is a push, do NOT be first in line, and even then another assault (other Atlas type, Stalker or even Awesome) should be first in line. If the only assault, well ... Good luck I guess.
ECM Atlas generates the most hate (beside the Raven 3L, but that little guy can fend off for himself with speed and ECM, not just ECM) after a SplatCat. Do you know what is often the first words I hear in my headset when Premade-ing? "Atlas DDC on E7, Delta (D) Target. Get him."
Don't do what the OP suggests. Play smart. There is a time and place to be the Hero on the front line, even for an Atlas.

See, I don't see tanking as necessarily rushing into the fight ahead of everyone. In my experience, you will be the primary target whether you're playing smart, using buildings or hills as cover, or not.

I think it's a delicate balance, popping out long enough to get attention, but not so much so that you're just slaughtered.

You don't have to play stupid to be a tank.

Josef Nader, on 13 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

People seem to not know what the word tank means. Tanking in regards to video game is a matter of controlling attention, not just soaking buckets of damage. I don't know a single player in this game who will ignore an Atlas unless they are being directly attacked by a more immediate threat. Even then, Atlai are -always- priority targets, so as long as the Atlas is present in the fight he -will- be the center of the fight. You can't survive by just meatheading through attacks, but you -can- control enemy aggression through careful play. The whole point of tanking is to be the guy the enemies are trying to kill, not just soaking damage. The longer you can keep their attention, the better you've done your job. Again, if you die before you've lost every section of your mech and dealt 500 or more damage, you've failed as an Atlas.

You're a tank. Be a tank. Tanking does not mean brawling. It means being the center of attention. Just like light mechs should be scouts. I don't care what you're packing, you still move faster and can cover more ground than the rest of us. We need your eyes to help us spot enemy movements. Play your role.

See, this guy gets it!

+1

[Josef Nader]

Brenticus, on 13 March 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

See, I don't see tanking as necessarily rushing into the fight ahead of everyone. In my experience, you will be the primary target whether you're playing smart, using buildings or hills as cover, or not.

I think it's a delicate balance, popping out long enough to get attention, but not so much so that you're just slaughtered.

You don't have to play stupid to be a tank.

This man gets it.

[Elandyll]

Josef Nader, on 13 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

This man gets it.

My point is that the OP doesn't get it.
He considers that an Atlas that stayed a bit behind, dealt 600dmg and got 3 kills is a failure vs a successful Atlas who got 0 kills, scored 200dmg and died among the first ones "soaking up damage" for his teammates.

I have the exact opposite opinion, granted that overall you help your team and do not try to stay back to ramp up your K/D ratio.

Wether Brawling (my version of "Tanking", which to me means Smart Tanking, not just "soaking up damage in the front" like the OP means) or staying in the back LRMing or sniping, the Atlas is a versatile machine open to more than one style of play.
If it helps the team, go for it.

Edited by Elandyll, 13 March 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Brenticus]

Elandyll, on 13 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

My point is that the OP doesn't get it.
He considers that an Atlas that stayed a bit behind, dealt 600dmg and got 3 kills is a failure vs a successful Atlas who got 0 kills, scored 200dmg and died among the first ones "soaking up damage" for his teammates.

I have the exact opposite opinion, granted that overall you help your team and do not try to stay back to ramp up your K/D ratio.

I can agree that OP oversimplified by a lot.

I think the issue he was addressing was legit, but I agree that the proposed "proper" way of piloting an Atlas was taking it from one extreme to another, when (as usual) the ideal is somewhere in between.

[Josef Nader]

The difference between "good Atlas" and "poop Atlas" is presence. Was the Atlas present and able to keep the attention of the enemy? Was the enemy trying to kill him over his teammates? Are all his teammates dead and he's barely hurt?

[Walter Soebchak]

Atlas pilots can play whatever role they like. In fact, behind the lines might be best, because as soon as they step forward they get focus fired into the ground. Maybe it's on the other pilots to support the big, heavy, slow moving assaults not expect them to wade into the fray without support and get killed for the sake of you scoring high on damage done.

"You worry about your own game, plenty there to keep you busy."

Edit: While I do own an Atlas, I run medium, heavy, or even a commando more often than not.

Edited by Walter Soebchak, 13 March 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[DegeneratePervert]

The Atlas is one of my favorite mechs, and it hurts when I see one packed to the brim with LRMs. So much wasted potential. However, I love it when I see LRM atlas' when I'm on my Stalker 5S... I just tag you and bag you, because I can fire a crapton more LRMs than you can, while pounding you with 4 Medium Lasers if you try and close the gap.

[Brenticus]

If your teammates are on the verge of death and you haven't made yourself VERY conspicuous to draw their fire, you're doing it wrong.

If your team is sniping and taking pot shots and you're lumbering ahead eating the entire enmy's fire, you're doing it wrong.

I figure a lot of it is about timing.

[Josef Nader]

Atlai -can't- play whatever role they like, because they're impossible to ignore. Atlai are going to get focused fired every single time they appear. If your weapons aren't ready to fight back against any threat, you're going to fail as an Atlas.

If you don't want to tank, pick another chassis. Simple as that.

[Yokaiko]

PoLaR, on 13 March 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

LRM's on an Atlas are fine.

But LRM's on an Atlas hiding behind the rest of the team drives me absolutely nuts. You know, when everyone Is dead, spectating a fresh DDC firing from 1200 meters away.

Wtf.

Yes, particularly the D-DC because that ECM umbrella would be 100 million times more useful on the line. Not back getting tagged into useless ness by every LRM boat with a brain and every PPC mech on the other team.

Long range atlas fine, use ANYTHING but a DDC, but the heavy LRM D-DCs are a waste of tonnage in my opinion.

[SkyCake]

Okay... so if my team brings 8ddc brawlers and the other team brings 6 ddc brawlers and 2 ddc long range mechs, who is going to win the brawl????

It's not as cut and dry as you may think... as long as the long range mechs can remain effective through the entire match, then their builds may gain them an advantage in the match... if the long range ddcs can't remain effective because of range issues/obstacles/ecm disruption then the all brawler team gains an advantage...

It has nothing to do with 'wasting' an assault on long range, but everything to do with maximizing the effectiveness of your build, and the builds of your team...

Edited by SkyCake, 13 March 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

My main issue with lurmDDCs is that they're basically terrible at it. They can't get back into cover fast enough if they get counter-sniped, they're not fast enough to control the range of an engagement, and they don't have the Stalker's saving grace of ridiculous numbers of hardpoints.

[Yokaiko]

SkyCake, on 13 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with 'wasting' an assault on long range, but everything to do with maximizing the effectiveness of your build, and the builds of your team...

Correct and most atlases aren't close to fast enough to repossition in time to keep uptime going.

not without being very exposed.

[Brenticus]

Though an Atlas can tend or lean more toward one role or another, it can never truly fill the roles other mechs can.

Any mech on one extreme end of the spectrum can't fill the roles more balanced mechs can. It is not middle of the road, it is on the extreme end of armor and firepower, sacrificing all else- to the point that it is dedicated only to the ends those means may serve, and it gives up the ends that those other attributes would be a means to.

If you want versatility, look elsewhere.