448 replies to this topic

[Josef Nader]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Again... torso twisting is situational at best. Torso twisting is not a skill that will ALWAYS save you from dying. What dont you get about that? The best defense for assaults is still cover. Which is the complete opposite of how it should be... Assaults should be able to roam out in the open while light mechs should have to cling to cover. That is how it works in tabletop...

What I don't get about it is that I use it to keep myself alive all the time, and I consider it one of the most fundamental and useful skills I have as an Atlas. I main Atlai, and they're my best mechs by -far-. I pilot every weight class, and I've piloted almost every mech in the game, and the Atlas is still responsible for the vast majority of my damage, kills, and wins.

And I'm not sure what you're smoking. Assaults in tabletop crossed open spaces more slowly, received fewer bonuses to their defense for movement, and were, as always, primary targets for long range fire support.

[Apnu]

Royalewithcheese, on 14 March 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

What you're describing is closer to the old "hammer and anvil" strategy because facing is involved and you're playing a (presumably) intelligent opponent. The Atlas isn't drawing aggro, it's forcing the other person to commit, because turning your back on an Atlas inside its optimal firing range is a Very Bad Idea. Keep in mind that the Hunchback here isn't the "DPS" because it also does signficantly less damage than the Atlas - it's advantage in this case is mobility.

Sure but I played that exact strategy in several other MMORPGs. I know the Hunchback isn't DPS, it just doesn't have the tonnage for it, but it makes a great helper, like rougue types assisting the tank in other games. The rogue usually mops up the weakened enemies.

But you're spot on, the Hunch doesn't have the saying power to stand toe-to-toe in a brawl, it has to hit and move. When I pilot it, I try to use terrain to get around behind the target or use the Atlas I'm assisting as moving terrain. Especially when I'm facing a real DPS monster like the splatcat or boomcat. Plus, since I'm not being blown to hell in the Hunchback, I can find the time and space to focus fire on specific points of the enemy that I other wise wouldn't because facing 90 pts of damage in one alpha while in the clear is a quick way to the spectator pool in a Hunch.

[Rebas Kradd]

Josef Nader, on 13 March 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

People seem to not know what the word tank means. Tanking in regards to video game is a matter of controlling attention, not just soaking buckets of damage. I don't know a single player in this game who will ignore an Atlas unless they are being directly attacked by a more immediate threat. Even then, Atlai are -always- priority targets, so as long as the Atlas is present in the fight he -will- be the center of the fight. You can't survive by just meatheading through attacks, but you -can- control enemy aggression through careful play. The whole point of tanking is to be the guy the enemies are trying to kill, not just soaking damage. The longer you can keep their attention, the better you've done your job.

This would be true if Atlai could survive long enough to command attention for a considerable enough amount of time, but at the moment they can't. You and the OP aren't accounting for the fact that Atlai only last about 5 seconds longer than the average heavy before they're down as well.

And if you deal 500 damage and your teammates can't take advantage of that, I'd tend to look elsewhere for the problem instead of at the decisions of the Atlas pilot.

[Khobai]

Quote

What I don't get about it is that I use it to keep myself alive all the time, and I consider it one of the most fundamental and useful skills I have as an Atlas.

And I never said it wasn't a fundamental or important skill. But is IS situational. Torso twisting is great in like 1v1 situations where the other guy is as badly cored as you are. Torso twisting is not so great in situations where youre being focus fired by 2-3 light mechs though. There's times when torso twisting will save your *** and there's times when it makes almost no difference at all.

Also like I said before, knowing where to aim, and taking your time to line up shots properly is even more important than torso twisting. If you're alpha striking a torso twisted Atlas in the arm youre a terrible player. You don't do that.

Quote

And I'm not sure what you're smoking. Assaults in tabletop crossed open spaces more slowly, received fewer bonuses to their defense for movement, and were, as always, primary targets for long range fire support.

Yes but the random hit locations let them soak far more damage in tabletop. They actually got to take advantage of their leg/arm armor because they didn't get hit exclusively in the center torso. In tabletop, the damage distribution was about 50% to arms/legs, 27% to side torsos, 20% to center torso, 3% to head. So easily half the damage was absorbed by your arms/legs... that is not the case in MWO and no amount of torso twisting will make that the case either.

Quote

This would be true if Atlai could survive long enough to command attention for a considerable enough amount of time, but at the moment they can't. You and the OP aren't accounting for the fact that Atlai only last about 5 seconds longer than the average heavy before they're down as well.

Correct. Atlases cannot tank at all. And while I agree with Atlases being the center of the fight, its only because for whatever reason people fear them way more than they should, but I can post screenshots of me doing ungodly amounts of damage/kills in a frickin Commando. IMO a Commando represents a bigger threat than an Atlas in the current metagame. Sad but true.

Edited by Khobai, 14 March 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

The Atlas pilot who knows how to play the aggro game will be an asset to his team. That's all I am saying. Now the kobold is doing a smart thing too, and its a good strategy He's pulling the aggro away and well, kinda controlling the crowd so you can be tore up. Sorry you've had bad games with easily duped players, I've run into the same situation while riding in my Atlas. Sometimes you just get p0wnd and there's nothing you can do about it.

Main reason I don't play my Atlas is because the pugs are awful. They all scatter in different directions rather than trying to follow you, work together, or let you draw attention first. You'll get to a fight late after people are dead because they couldn't wait, or ran off to chase some Jenner like a dog chasing a squirrel while you're too slow to keep up. You then get circle strafed a lot with little or no support. It's just more fun to run around in something faster instead. It's a rather punishing Mech to try to solo queue with. You're also too slow to do anything about base cappers, so when your much faster allies don't give a crap about the base being capped, guess what, you lose. You'll never get back in time, and if you're last man standing in Conquest, GL.

Edited by Bluten, 14 March 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Sure but I played that exact strategy in several other MMORPGs. I know the Hunchback isn't DPS, it just doesn't have the tonnage for it, but it makes a great helper, like rougue types assisting the tank in other games. The rogue usually mops up the weakened enemies.

But you're spot on, the Hunch doesn't have the saying power to stand toe-to-toe in a brawl, it has to hit and move. When I pilot it, I try to use terrain to get around behind the target or use the Atlas I'm assisting as moving terrain. Especially when I'm facing a real DPS monster like the splatcat or boomcat. Plus, since I'm not being blown to hell in the Hunchback, I can find the time and space to focus fire on specific points of the enemy that I other wise wouldn't because facing 90 pts of damage in one alpha while in the clear is a quick way to the spectator pool in a Hunch.

"How about you fight the immobile thing that can fight you for a while while the mobile and possibly more fragile thing circles around to hit you in the back" is an old, old tactic. You see it in a lot of games - this stuff works pretty well in Total War, for instance.

The difference between the (slightly) more realistic "facing" implementation and the MMO tactic is that the Atlas doesn't really have to specifically be drawing fire. It probably will, but the thing keeping the enemy there isn't aggro+armor, it's that turning your back on an Atlas is a terrible idea. Another difference is that the Atlas can be the flanker if it ends up being positioned correctly in relation to the other team - the "roles" aren't hardcoded into the abilities of the mechs, they're more an organic consequence of how much damage they do, how much armor they have, and how mobile they are.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 14 March 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Rebas Kradd, on 14 March 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

This would be true if Atlai could survive long enough to command attention for a considerable enough amount of time, but at the moment they can't. You and the OP aren't accounting for the fact that Atlai only last about 5 seconds longer than the average heavy before they're down as well.

And if you deal 500 damage and your teammates can't take advantage of that, I'd tend to look elsewhere for the problem instead of at the decisions of the Atlas pilot.

You're just confirming my hypothesis that the vast majority of Atlas pilots are absolutely freaking terrible. I almost never die before I've lost every section of my mech and dealt 500 damage while occupying at least 2-3 mechs at a time. It may sound like idle bragging, but I'm not exaggerating this. The Atlas is exceptionally good at what it does if you play it properly. Most people don't play it properly. In fact, most Atlas pilots are terrible, hence the whole WE CAN'T TANK BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CT ARMOR crowd.

[Khobai]

Uh 500 damage? I do 600-800 in my Commando-2D consistently and nearly always get 4-5 kills. And I dont die. This is a typical game in my Commando-2D. I don't even consider myself a particularly good light pilot... just lights are so ridiculous right now that I can do this every game.

[DeaconW]

I've changed my mind...let the "tank" crowd believe the Atlas is a "tank" and pilot their Atlai to support that notion. I'll still pilot my Atlas and use my piloting/gunnery skills in a more intelligent manner...in fact, I hope that as many atlas pilots as possible believe the tank/aggro crap...it can only improve my W/L ratio and C-Bill income...."tanks" for everyone!

[Royalewithcheese]

DeaconW, on 14 March 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I've changed my mind...let the "tank" crowd believe the Atlas is a "tank" and pilot their Atlai to support that notion. I'll still pilot my Atlas and use my piloting/gunnery skills in a more intelligent manner...in fact, I hope that as many atlas pilots as possible believe the tank/aggro crap...it can only improve my W/L ratio and C-Bill income...."tanks" for everyone!

I for one, also support as many of my opponents as possible thinking "getting shot" is a viable combat role

[Apnu]

Royalewithcheese, on 14 March 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

"How about you fight the immobile thing that can fight you for a while while the mobile and possibly more fragile thing circles around to hit you in the back" is an old, old tactic. You see it in a lot of games - this stuff works pretty well in Total War, for instance.

The difference between the (slightly) more realistic "facing" implementation and the MMO tactic is that the Atlas doesn't really have to specifically be drawing fire. It probably will, but the thing keeping the enemy there isn't aggro+armor, it's that turning your back on an Atlas is a terrible idea. Another difference is that the Atlas can be the flanker if it ends up being positioned correctly in relation to the other team - the "roles" aren't hardcoded into the abilities of the mechs, they're more an organic consequence of how much damage they do, how much armor they have, and how mobile they are.

Fine points. All I am trying to say is there are parallels that have applications in this game. And that pilots who recognize and fill a role in a match are more successful than others. Atlas pilots who are aware of the attention they are going to attract can use that to their advantage. Tanking is but one application. Some strategies work better than others. On thing that makes MWO different is PGI has no intention to put PvE in the game, so some things from a more traditional MMORPG won't work. There is no predictable AI to exploit. It is not smart in MWO to ever wade out in the open and attract attention, even the Atlas dies fast like that. But in a PvE game it can be a good idea.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Josef Nader, on 14 March 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

What I don't get about it is that I use it to keep myself alive all the time, and I consider it one of the most fundamental and useful skills I have as an Atlas. I main Atlai, and they're my best mechs by -far-. I pilot every weight class, and I've piloted almost every mech in the game, and the Atlas is still responsible for the vast majority of my damage, kills, and wins.

And I'm not sure what you're smoking. Assaults in tabletop crossed open spaces more slowly, received fewer bonuses to their defense for movement, and were, as always, primary targets for long range fire support.

It really depends on the build. For the Alpha strike types, torso twisting makes a lot of sense. It doesn't generally help me much in that I'm usually cycling through different weapons systems at different rates. Much more efficient to just stay on target and keep firing what ever is available. I do occasionally do it to spread LRM damage when I have no shot available to me.

[Royalewithcheese]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Fine points. All I am trying to say is there are parallels that have applications in this game. And that pilots who recognize and fill a role in a match are more successful than others. Atlas pilots who are aware of the attention they are going to attract can use that to their advantage. Tanking is but one application.

I think that's fair - it might be a helpful term to ppl who are familiar with RPG-type combat

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 14 March 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[Vahnn]

Let's get something straight: I don't think anyone who has said the Atlas' role is to "tank" or "soak up damage" actually means it in the sense of a Warrior in World of Warcraft or other similar games, where they take endless amounts of damage...

Sure, it only takes 160 damage to kill an Atlas, but that's a GREAT deal more than every other mech in the entire game. You CAN take more punishment than any other mech... For only a few seconds. Which is why it's as important as it is for your teammates to use those few seconds in which the enemy is shooting at the Atlas to take them out instead. If no one is killing whomever is damaging the Atlas... Then the Atlas will die, plain and simple. But seconds count.

[Khobai]

Well I don't know about other people's definitions of tanking, but to me tanking is the ability to mitigate damage, either through evasion/dodge, damage reduction, or more hitpoints.

Because tanking includes evasion/dodge then the Raven by that definition can be considered a tank.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Uh 500 damage? I do 600-800 in my Commando-2D consistently and nearly always get 4-5 kills. And I dont die. This is a typical game in my Commando-2D. I don't even consider myself a particularly good light pilot... just lights are so ridiculous right now that I can do this every game.

500+ is very easy for an OP ECM/Streak Light Mech. I've gotten rows of 1k damage dealts before myself. Game balance is just completely out of wack. They need to completely redesign ECM/BAP/Streaks/LRMs.

[Khobai]

Quote

500+ is very easy for an OP ECM/Streak Light Mech. I've gotten rows of 1k damage dealts before myself. Game balance is just completely out of wack. They need to completely redesign ECM/BAP/Streaks/LRMs.

Oh its totally easy. And you dont even have to be an amazing pilot either. Like I consider myself decent but im hardly one of the best light pilots. And I can consistently rack up 600-800 damage in a Commando-2D. Streaks are insane, and in some cases because of their splash radius, theyre doing as much as 400% more damage than they should. Streaks/LRMs/ECM absolutely need to be reworked.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Bluten, on 14 March 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Main reason I don't play my Atlas is because the pugs are awful. They all scatter in different directions rather than trying to follow you, work together, or let you draw attention first. You'll get to a fight late after people are dead because they couldn't wait, or ran off to chase some Jenner like a dog chasing a squirrel while you're too slow to keep up. You then get circle strafed a lot with little or no support. It's just more fun to run around in something faster instead. It's a rather punishing Mech to try to solo queue with. You're also too slow to do anything about base cappers, so when your much faster allies don't give a crap about the base being capped, guess what, you lose. You'll never get back in time, and if you're last man standing in Conquest, GL.

Absolutely true. I've just played a series of PUGs which were an absolute f***ing shambles. Team scatters all across the map leaving two of us in assault mechs at the mercy of the steel rain and the 3L's immune to weapons fire. I ended up quitting in disgust.

Something I'll say to all those who comment "learn to use cover" against LRMs - YOU try doing that in a mech that tops out at 58.8 Kmh and see how easy it is.

Piloting an assault mech in PUGs is almost at the point where it just isn't fun any more

[Dock Steward]

You want the Atlas on the front lines? Maybe don't everyone peel away from him at the start of the match. Those things aren't fast you know.

[spartanjohn117]

I see a bunch of finger pointing but not a lot of teamwork.
If you want to play a team based game them play as a team and that goes for everyone, I also forget and play solo from time to time forgetting to cover the heavy mechs in my light or be a damage sink in my assault, and I play every type of mech.

If we want a effective team then we have to play our roles and let people know what we think while being open to new ideas.

On a side note if you are 25+ and finding that playing with the younger generations is trying your patience then come and join us on 20ld2play mecha, where being mature is not overrated and having fun while playing as a team or pugging is a must.

Edited by SPARTANJOHN117, 14 March 2013 - 03:18 PM.