647 replies to this topic

[WardenWolf]

Primetimex, on 13 March 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

I'm a regular SSRM2 user and my stats works out the average damage to be 2.59~ per missile - so not exactly 2.5 as stated but it's a very small deviation and not way out of range like 3 dmg plus per missile.
(worked out from 14,431 dmg / 5,557 successful hits) = 2.596905

I use streaks too, and see damage almost exactly where it should be (as you do) - so either it isn't happening in live or 'splash' damage isn't being tabulated in the stats.

Thontor, on 13 March 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

definitely..

make sure to test it on light mechs.. it seems to affect them the most... because their hitboxes are so close together the splash damage spreads all over the mech

Just confirmed in testing grounds that both SSRM2 and SRM2 are doing about the same damage to a Commando - and more than they should (14-15% damage per volley, vs 5% for a *pair* of medium lasers).

Will try to find a friend with a commando to test on in live with the SRM2... if I can, I will post results here.

DubBucket, on 13 March 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Just tested live with a single SRM 6 to my commando. result = destroyed

This is a good indication that the bug is in live, but lets get a test with a SRM2 - then you can see the damage amount without a kill.

[Felbombling]

Thontor, on 13 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

You and your friend should both take the trial commando

Shaking my noggin wondering why I didn't think of that.

[Team Leader]

I have suspected this for a long time lol, there's a reason missiles are pretty much the best weapons in the game. Glad you found this. Something needs to be fixed here! Would explain why a tiny number of streak from a raven will strip all the armor all over on my spiders.

[Garbagecan]

Nice work OP!

[WardenWolf]

BUG CONFIRMED IN LIVE

Video and screenshots taken, uploading to YouTube now...

[DubBucket]

Yeah.. not only did a single SRM6 volley destroy my Commando, but it blew both arms and torsos off.

Wow, no wonder splatcats are so destructive.

[Sagamore]

This is also a MAJOR factor in determining light mech supremacy and why the 3L is the undisputed king. Due to ECM, the only other light mech that can use streaks against it (besides another 3L) is the 2D and we've just seen what missiles do to Commandos...

[Voidsinger]

This is obviously more an issue for light mechs. It seems splash damage is working on distance, hence Commandos and Spiders get a world load of hurt from any splash weapon. That means they either make splash damage work the same across all mechs, or they need to completely re-appraise how armour works (heavier mechs may carry more armour, but that armour is spread across a much larger area, hence lights should have more armour points to counter splash damage bias).

I know a great many assault mech pilots will take glee at this. It means they suffer least from splash damage. It means light mechs are even less desirable to play, and encourages the greater tonnages per team we are seeing. It also makes the Raven even more overpowered in the light class, and the Splatcat simply murderous against lights.

This is a gamebreaker. If not fixed then lights, and even mediums will be unplayable.

[Gandalfrockman]

Honestly, I think they just need to tone the splash radius on missiles WAY down, I think people are overcomplicating how this is calculated, in the crytek engine there just isnt that much abstraction going on

When the missile hits, each section That intersects the 1.5 meter sphere centered on the point of impact takes the full damage.

On small mechs like the commando, that means it catches several sections at once.
On larger mechs it might catch two from time to time. I'm really only worried about the small mechs issue.

Make the radius for missiles tiny, and see if it works, Im fairly certain we dont care about the splash on missiles, it isnt a large enough space for near misses to even be tactically relevant.

Edited by Gandalfrockman, 13 March 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Wrenchfarm]

Thontor, on 13 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Seems like the Commando has the worst of it because of it's size and hit box locations, but there's issues with the Jenner too...

I would suspect the Spider would get it as bad or worse than the Com given it's odd and compact design. All those extra wings and points to catch rockets on and reflect it back into the head and chest.

[WardenWolf]

Video demonstrating bug:

http://youtu.be/lJQxOdRS3Ug

Edited by WardenWolf, 13 March 2013 - 07:05 PM.

[WardenWolf]

Anyone know how to embed videos here?

[IceFyre]

Absolutely great work, seriously. But here's the thing...Streaks, LRMs & SRMs are missiles, specifically guided and unguided missiles with warheads that detonate on contact. They are not penetrators with a delayed fuse. These weapons (missiles) do and will cause splash damage in the real world. End of story. I personally would like MWO to stay rooted in the physics of the universe I live in.

Note - I say this as one who is as frequently on the receiving end as I am the one dishing out the damage.

Ice

[DubBucket]

WardenWolf, on 13 March 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Video demonstrating bug:

http://youtu.be/lJQxOdRS3Ug

tldr; SRM splash damage multiplies when spread across hitboxes. This bug is live and game balance breaking.

I wouldn't be surprised if this also applies to LRM splash.

Edited by DubBucket, 13 March 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Thontor, on 13 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Seems like the Commando has the worst of it because of it's size and hit box locations, but there's issues with the Jenner too...

Single SRM6 to the point where my reticle is aiming:


3 Medium Laser shots to the same spot:



should both be the same, 15 damage.

Confirms my Jenner experiences.
Missiles pretty much always seem to land on the front side torsos, even when they impact the rear.

To everyone saying that the splash damage is intended to deal full damage to each component hit:
First currently missiles are doing greater than full damage to some components.
Second it's intended that missile damage is divided amongst all locations hit, not doing full to each.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 March 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Voidsinger]

Gandalfrockman, on 13 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Honestly, I think they just need to tone the splash radius on missiles WAY down.

No, they need to make it work the same across all mechs, working on body parts, not distance.

The alternative means the armour system needs to be completely changed.

Using an example of Assault mech A versus light mech B

A weighs 8 times as much as B (I know it can't happen, but it makes the maths easier and makes the point).

A should be roughly twice as tall as B

A should have roughly 4 times the surface area.

So to have the same armour thickness, A would need 4 times as much tonnage of armour as B.

Now, since MWO damage works off raw damage points to a set amount of points of armour, there is no real issue if splash damage is calculated on body parts.

If it is calculated by distance, then armour thickness NEEDS to be taken into account for fair damage allocation. Otherwise a larger mech gets an automatic massive armour bonus over tiny ones without any real reason.

That is what is happening here. Commandos are taking up to 7 times the damage because they calculate splash based on distance from impact, not adjacent body parts regardless of distance.

It is a gamebreaker, particularly with Host State Rewind.

[Monky]

IceFyre, on 13 March 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Absolutely great work, seriously. But here's the thing...Streaks, LRMs & SRMs are missiles, specifically guided and unguided missiles with warheads that detonate on contact. They are not penetrators with a delayed fuse. These weapons (missiles) do and will cause splash damage in the real world. End of story. I personally would like MWO to stay rooted in the physics of the universe I live in.

Note - I say this as one who is as frequently on the receiving end as I am the one dishing out the damage.

Ice

That's all well and good, however the damage shouldn't be '2.5 to every section engulfed by the explosion' because explosions don't work that way. It should be '2.5 units of 'force' that equate to removing that amount of armor per warhead, spread based on the explosion and what it hits.'

So in essence no - it should not be providing recursive extra damage. Even from a physics pov.

[Sagamore]

Voidsinger, on 13 March 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

That is what is happening here. Commandos are taking up to 7 times the damage because they calculate splash based on distance from impact, not adjacent body parts regardless of distance.

It is a gamebreaker, particularly with Host State Rewind.

I have to say I did notice it more after the Host State Rewind. I may as well shelf my three mastered Commandos for the moment and lumber around in an Atlas.

[krolmir]

Repeated and verified. The issue is made worse by the overlapping area of effects from explosions. Meaning more damage is being done than actually capable by the weapons system. Interesting how some chassis are more affected than others. That may be the real reason behind some of them getting a bad rap.

Edited by krolmir, 13 March 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[WassonG]

The damage being "splash" in nature is not the issue. What the issue is the amount of raw HP loss the mech is suffering. the damage missiles do should be a "potential" damage. When you score good center mass hits, the missiles do a proper 2.5 points of damage, and those that hit areas that are less vital, like the shoulder pads of an atlas, or a centurion's shield arm, making them actually fulfill a role that is almost like actual armor.