647 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

The math is screwed up.

If this is intentional, the base damage needs to be far lower than it currently is (essentially, it would have to be nerfed to its original TT stat).

If this isn't intentional (which it may be the case), then this needs to be addressed ASAP. At the very least, it would call for a nerf to streaks and other missiles which probably use the same splash formula. I never thought missiles would deliver splash that was like some sort of mini-nuke.

No splash for missiles is not happening... the splash damage effect must be nerfed however.

[WardenWolf]

Deathlike, on 13 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

No splash for missiles is not happening... the splash damage effect must be nerfed however.

I'm surprised to hear someone say this - why is splash damage required? It wasn't there in TT, and I never noticed it before in any other MechWarrior games. I was always surprised that the Devs talked about it in this game, and I assumed it must be extremely small... but that does not appear to be the case!

We at least need some explanation for why this is here, and why it is causing more splash damage than actual initial damage.

[Volume]

Oh my gosh.

This is a serious, serious, serious problem, and I felt like SRMs did too much damage whether using them myself or being on the receiving end of them.

I'm afraid that Artillery strikes might function the same way, in which case we're going to have an even larger problem on our hands next patch.

[MuonNeutrino]

Asmosis, on 13 March 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Now, if it were dealing *more* than 2 damage to a single component (due to double splash or splash onto same area) that would be a problem.

Thing is, not only is there splash damage, missiles *ARE* doing more than their listed damage to each individual component *as well*.

I just took a raven into the training grounds with a srm2 in the narc port, found the commando, and fired the srm2 straight into the center of the front chest. After the first shot, every location on the mech had been damaged, and the readout read 84%, meaning that a net of 35.7 damage had bean dealt. That's over 7 times the damage that should have been dealt, which is bad enough, but what's worse is what happens next.

After two shots, the total health reads 67%, so another 37 or so damage has been dealt (about the same as last time, allowing for rounding errors), but the scary thing is that all three torsos have been stripped. The commando comes stock with 18 armor on each front side torso and 24 on the front center, and all of that armor (and some of the internals) have been stripped by 4 srm rockets. Taking just the center torso, that means that each of the 4 missiles did at least 6 damage each *just to the CT*, totally ignoring the splash to the side torsos! In other words, not only are missiles doing much much more *aggregate* damage than we expected though splashing onto multiple areas, missiles are *also* doing far too much damage to each *individual* area, as well.

As a futher aside, the third blast blew off both side torsos. By tickling the CT to death with a small laser, it had somewhere around 4 or 5 HP left at that point, meaning that 6 missiles did a total of 35-36ish damage just to the CT, or about 6 per missile again.

EDIT! As was pointed out below, I used the wrong armor values for the commando's torsos - the correct values are 12 and 16. The CT was still stripped by 4 srm missiles, for a total of 4 damage per missile. So, not quite as horrifically bad as I thought above, but they're still doing significantly more than the 2.5 damage per missile they *ought* to be able to do to any one component. And the small laser test suggests that the total damage dealt by 6 rockets was 27-28, for a total damage/missile to the CT of about 4.5-5.5, again still far more than it should be.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 13 March 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[stjobe]

Another test, this time 48m in front of a COM-1B, firing a single SSRM-2 launcher at it.

1st shot takes it down to 84% which means those two SSRMs did 36 damage.
2nd shot takes it down to 69% and strips both side torsos of armour. Damage done: 33.
3rd shot takes it down to 53% and strips the CT and LA. Again, 36 damage.
4th shot kills the 1B.

That's six SRMs, supposed to do 15 damage, doing 105 damage - or seven times as much as they should.

Edit: And pretty much confirming MuonNeutrino's findings above; the numbers are almost identical.

Edited by stjobe, 13 March 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

I also went out and reproduced the test. I won't bore you with all the numbers, but I did extensive testing to prove to myself that the %'s were working as suggested using MLs on a number of mechs, and it worked perfectly. I then did Streak testing on some larger mechs and I came up with a nearly perfect 2.5 damage per missile. With percentages rounded off, it was was close enough I'd call it exact. When tried on a Commando with Streaks on chain fire, 4 missiles had stripped and gone internal on BOTH side torsos, while leaving damage on every other section, and dropped the total health to 72%.

First I'd say that this proves the issue is entirely in the splash damage, rather than the actual missile damage (feel free to test).

Second, I'd say that, having driven Commandos quite a but, and having fired missiles at them a fair amount, and even allowing for increased armor on most Commandos in-game, this is not a perfect representation of what goes down when firing on a moving Commando. It would take actual in-game testing in a non-hostile environment (so you had time to record results) but I feel like splash, and maybe all explosive, damage may not be instant and This could account for the discrepancies I've noted in other threads about LRMs doing massive damage to stationary targets, but seeming to do very little to a fast-moving light. I had a Commando take 6 full volleys of LRM60 while another light chased it, at least 2 of those volleys in LOS, so that Arti IV was in effect, and none of them behind significant blocking cover (just some of the low, sloped hills in Forest Colony).

[Edit: the part about driving COM myself is because I know I can significantly more missiles than that on mine before it becomes an issue. More than can be accounted for by increased armor withtin the limits of a COM.]

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 13 March 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Phaesphoros]

MuonNeutrino, on 13 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

The commando comes stock with 18 armor on each front side torso and 24 on the front center

Not correct AFAIK. See smurfy (dunno which one is on testing grounds, but none has maxed armor)

Done the same on JR arm (stock 8 armor), single SRM2 + SL = 8 dmg cored w/o damaging the internals.

Edited by Phaesphoros, 13 March 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Deathlike]

I don't remember the last time missiles didn't explode/detonate on a target in a real situation (assuming it wasn't disabled or anything).

To date, I don't remember any previous MW game that I recall not having it (MW2, MW3, MW4 all had it).

[Monky]

MuonNeutrino, on 13 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Thing is, not only is there splash damage, missiles *ARE* doing more than their listed damage to each individual component *as well*.

I just took a raven into the training grounds with a srm2 in the narc port, found the commando, and fired the srm2 straight into the center of the front chest. After the first shot, every location on the mech had been damaged, and the readout read 84%, meaning that a net of 35.7 damage had bean dealt. That's over 7 times the damage that should have been dealt, which is bad enough, but what's worse is what happens next.

After two shots, the total health reads 67%, so another 37 or so damage has been dealt (about the same as last time, allowing for rounding errors), but the scary thing is that all three torsos have been stripped. The commando comes stock with 18 armor on each front side torso and 24 on the front center, and all of that armor (and some of the internals) have been stripped by 4 srm rockets. Taking just the center torso, that means that each of the 4 missiles did at least 6 damage each *just to the CT*, totally ignoring the splash to the side torsos! In other words, not only are missiles doing much much more *aggregate* damage than we expected though splashing onto multiple areas, missiles are *also* doing far too much damage to each *individual* area, as well.

As a futher aside, the third blast blew off both side torsos. By tickling the CT to death with a small laser, it had somewhere around 4 or 5 HP left at that point, meaning that 6 missiles did a total of 35-36ish damage just to the CT, or about 6 per missile again.

This right here is the important part. It's not only splashing other components with FULL damage, it is then TRIPLE DIPPING back onto the originally damaged component.

Edited by Monky, 13 March 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[stjobe]

Phaesphoros, on 13 March 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Not correct AFAIK. See smurfy (dunno which one is on testing grounds, but none has maxed armor)

The stock 1B has 16 armour on the CT, and 12 on each side torso.
So four SRMs did 40 damage to those locations, or 10 damage per missile. Keep in mind also that those three locations weren't the only locations damaged - every hit location on the 'mech took damage.

[Amaris the Usurper]

MuonNeutrino, on 13 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Thing is, not only is there splash damage, missiles *ARE* doing more than their listed damage to each individual component *as well*.

I just took a raven into the training grounds with a srm2 in the narc port, found the commando, and fired the srm2 straight into the center of the front chest. After the first shot, every location on the mech had been damaged, and the readout read 84%, meaning that a net of 35.7 damage had bean dealt. That's over 7 times the damage that should have been dealt, which is bad enough, but what's worse is what happens next.

After two shots, the total health reads 67%, so another 37 or so damage has been dealt (about the same as last time, allowing for rounding errors), but the scary thing is that all three torsos have been stripped. The commando comes stock with 18 armor on each front side torso and 24 on the front center, and all of that armor (and some of the internals) have been stripped by 4 srm rockets. Taking just the center torso, that means that each of the 4 missiles did at least 6 damage each *just to the CT*, totally ignoring the splash to the side torsos! In other words, not only are missiles doing much much more *aggregate* damage than we expected though splashing onto multiple areas, missiles are *also* doing far too much damage to each *individual* area, as well.

As a futher aside, the third blast blew off both side torsos. By tickling the CT to death with a small laser, it had somewhere around 4 or 5 HP left at that point, meaning that 6 missiles did a total of 35-36ish damage just to the CT, or about 6 per missile again.

Be careful. We can only regard the health percentage as an accurate representation of how much damage has been done by the missiles when no limbs have been blown off. If, for example, you destroy a side torso, all of the armor/structure HP from the arm will be deducted from the total, even though the arm was only partially damaged when it fell off.

I'm not sure exactly what happened in your test, but this could be making your damage results appear higher than they should.

[p4r4g0n]

Interestingly enough, PPCs which also have splash damage (or are supposed iirc) only do about 50% of the listed base damage of 10 from 100m on a Comm 1B' CT. One salvo to the Comm reduced overall health by 5%.

[MuonNeutrino]

Phaesphoros, on 13 March 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Not correct AFAIK. See smurfy (dunno which one is on testing grounds, but none has maxed armor)

Done the same on JR arm (stock 8 armor), single SRM2 + SL = 8 dmg cored w/o damaging the internals.

Whoops. Sorry, you're correct. I was looking at the mechlab, and forgot that I had hit the 'max armor' button to see what the total max armor of a commando was. It has 12/16/12, so... recalculating!

Ok, the CT was still stripped by 4 srm missiles, for a total of 4 damage per missile. Not quite as horrifically bad as I thought above, but still significantly more than the 2.5 damage per missile it *ought* to be able to do to any one component. And the small laser test suggests that the total damage dealt by 6 rockets was 27-28, for a total damage/missile to the CT of about 4.5-5.5, again still far more than it should be.

Amaris the Usurper, on 13 March 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Be careful. We can only regard the health percentage as an accurate representation of how much damage has been done by the missiles when no limbs have been blown off. If, for example, you destroy a side torso, all of the armor/structure HP from the arm will be deducted from the total, even though the arm was only partially damaged when it fell off.

I'm not sure exactly what happened in your test, but this could be making your damage results appear higher than they should.

Yeah, that's why I was only using the percentage for the first two shots, before any locations had been blown off. The remaining percentage after the third shot was indeed meaningless, which is why I resorted to testing how much HP the CT had left with the small laser.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 13 March 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[Tikkamasala]

p4r4g0n, on 13 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, PPCs which also have splash damage (or are supposed iirc) only do about 50% of the listed base damage of 10 from 100m on a Comm 1B' CT. One salvo to the Comm reduced overall health by 5%.

The total com-1b health is about 200: PPCs seem to do their listed damage.

Edited by Tikkamasala, 13 March 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[stjobe]

Added a thread pointing to this one in the Patch Feedback forum: http://mwomercs.com/...-listed-damage/

[Davers]

p4r4g0n, on 13 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, PPCs which also have splash damage (or are supposed iirc) only do about 50% of the listed base damage of 10 from 100m on a Comm 1B' CT. One salvo to the Comm reduced overall health by 5%.

PPCs are not supposed to have splash damage. They are supposed to deal their entire damage to one location.

[Cromwill]

My faith in the development team took a huge hit...Critical hit.

[Monky]

p4r4g0n, on 13 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, PPCs which also have splash damage (or are supposed iirc) only do about 50% of the listed base damage of 10 from 100m on a Comm 1B' CT. One salvo to the Comm reduced overall health by 5%.

I did confirm that PPC do NOT have splash damage while in that game, they behave exactly like a ballistic.

[Haitchpeasauce]

I sent a support ticket as well.

This needs a pretty urgent fix, the same as when they found lasers did more damage to the rear of the mech while ballistics did far less.

[Chemie]

laser recharge is broken so maybe other things too (but just in proving grounds)