550 replies to this topic

[Esplodin]

jay35, on 14 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

MGs are there to give people with extra Ballistic slots and tonnage something to throw on to help increase internal crit percentage a bit once their other weapons have cracked through armor. They're not intended to be boated or actually do significant damage on their own.

Oh, and I really HATE the devs for creating the myth that a MG is only good for crit seeking while having mechs available that literally have no other options but MG to load. This is just stupid.

[Terror Teddy]

jay35, on 14 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

MGs are there to give people with extra Ballistic slots and tonnage something to throw on to help increase internal crit percentage a bit once their other weapons have cracked through armor. They're not intended to be boated or actually do significant damage on their own.

And you based those facts on what exactly?

Quote

MGs are there to give people with extra Ballistic slots and tonnage

That part, the part you wrote - that part invalidates your entire argument. Have you HEARD of the term light mechs? Anything at say 20-30 tonnes?

[Heeden]

Terror Teddy, on 14 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Ok, but why take 6 tonnes of MG's when I can take ANOTHER mech at the same weight and use X6 small lasers for 3 and add 3 heat sinks.

6 DPS VS 1,2 - yes, you gain heat but your damage to internals when you crack them open is 5-6 times as large.

This seems to be more an argument against Spiders

Esplodin, on 14 March 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Giving the MG the same DPS of an AC2, 4 dps, is not broken. MG trade a significant weight reduction and 0 heat compared to an AC2 for:

1) 90m range. (aka collision death close)
2) ToT (time on target) of 100%
3) Cone of dakka, not precision targeting

Compared to a small laser:

1) 90m range
2) ToT of 25%
3) 1 ton less weight

ToT is crucial for a properly piloted light. With hit detection improving (and only getting better) all strafing runs are: I'm up, he sees me, I'm gone. (The only chassis that can survive the circle of death is a raven, and it is a stupid maneuver anyway.) Small laser (and MPL) is great for this, since it dumps damage in .75 seconds, and cool down DOES NOT MATTER because I'm no longer on target and scrambling away while the weapon recycles.

With a MG, comparatively, I'm doing .75 second bursts with the same tactics just to keep the numbers similar - although it is not too big of a stretch. That reduces the effective DPS to 3 (compared to the effective DPS of a SL of 5.25 based on ToT). It is even further reduced by keeping 90-75m away from target (to minimize bad habits of running through targets), which will spread damage to just about all enemy facing sections, as well as the surrounding terrain. My stats for MG are about 50% hit rate - which would yield a terrifying 1.5 DPS to all facing hit boxes of the enemy. Or put another way, about 1.2 damage per MG strafing run compared to 3 for a SL. Of course if they let me stand there I could get 4DPS, which would promptly get me lasered into a pile of slag.

Effective DPS matters way more then potential DPS in every case for a real time sim. Think of it this way. Potential DPS on an ERPPC is 3.33, but in combat it is less over the course of a match because you have to stop firing at some point due to heat. Sure its capable of hitting that DPS, but the real world (lol) performance will always be less.

I don't think you've quite worked out your DPS based on ToT properly. The SLas does 4 damage-per-second-on-target (3 damage in 0.75 seconds) which would be the same as a MG if it had a dps of 4. However if you have more than 0.75 seconds firing time on your target the MGs dps remains at 4 as you continue firing, whereas the SLas drops towards 1 until their firing cycle is up. In a situation where you have several seconds to fire at the target the MG would be two and a half times as effective as an MPLas or, to put it another way, a 4MG Spider (2 tonnes + ammo) would be packing the firepower of 10 MPLas (20 tonnes + a zillion heat-sinks), without having to worry about heat or losing the few seconds DPS if the enemy zigs when you expected them to zag.

Personally I'd like to see MG-Arrays added so we can stick more on each ballistic slot, possibly with more ammo-per-ton added, but I don't think the basic stats of MGs need changing.

Edited by Heeden, 14 March 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

i always thought that was more the Small Laser. The Awesome 3 PPCs 1 small laser! That Small was only added because at the time you could not round off armor. You needed to apply all 8/16 points or... Small Laser.

[AdamBaines]

Terror Teddy, on 14 March 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Yea, but would you be happy if they replaced Light Lasers with TAG - because that's essentially what they've done with MG's. To be the assistant to someone else.

TAG - Assist LRM's
MG's -Assist those who do damage and then crit things.

I'm trying to digest your point........

Let me throw out of my brain the notion that I believe small lasers are way over rated in this game before i consider you point any further :-) .......

Ok, I understand and follow your logic. And it is a problem, with the current state of how the overall game works, that a platform as you suggest, 4 ballistic hard points on a light that cant support just one large bore caliber weapon, cannot be anything but a side kick. But I just keep going back in my head that,,,,,well...thats the role or the platform. As I have said there seems to be some room for tweaking around the weapon, but not a lot. I think as the game continues to evolve and its not just "yea I killed that guy so I win and my kill totals go up" but more of an over all approach to this kind of simulated warfare, it wont be as large of a complaint. Sometimes I feel like people want to think less in this game and just shoot and expect things to blow up, to not use strategy and just go boom. I'm not in any way of accusing you of this, I'm just using this opportunity in this discussion with you to say that. I know there are a few "professional" gamers here who know alot more about the mechanics of games then I do, but when it comes down to it this is a very different game then many other shooters, even Hawken. Sometimes in games, like in real life....there is no "balance". As the IS will learn soon enough ;-)

Ok sorry about that strange tangent.....even reading back my own post I cant figure out how i got to that point. LOL sorry about that.

[General Taskeen]

Esplodin, on 14 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Oh, and I really HATE the devs for creating the myth that a MG is only good for crit seeking while having mechs available that literally have no other options but MG to load. This is just stupid.

And the myth has spread unfortunately. Just like the Osama was killed Myth. Legendary.

No MG defender to date has ever shown live tests of what's it like for a Trial with 2 MG's. Balance starts at the Trial and Stock level. "Just put some more M249 and BOOLETS on there Bruh, and crit seek and wait for Infantry Consumable for 25MC Bruh to shoot M249 at Enemy Soldier with BOOLETS."

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 March 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

This seems to be more an argument against Spiders

Not really - it is basically ANY hull with multiple MG hull amongst light mechs.

ANY 20-30 tonner with multiple ballistic points becomes the lesser choice if I can be more efficient with another weapon system - not to mention that there are several weapons with greater range and damage.

SRM2 + 100 missiles = 1,43 DPS and can dish out 250 damage per tonne.

For 2 tonnes total over 175 seconds you deliver 250 damage up to 270 meters.

Why take 6 tonnes MG's & Ammo that deliver 320 damage over 200 seconds within 100 meters - or 160 at 150 meters.

[Hou]

Terror Teddy, on 14 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Not really - it is basically ANY hull with multiple MG hull amongst light mechs.

ANY 20-30 tonner with multiple ballistic points becomes the lesser choice if I can be more efficient with another weapon system - not to mention that there are several weapons with greater range and damage.

SRM2 + 100 missiles = 1,43 DPS and can dish out 250 damage per tonne.

For 2 tonnes total over 175 seconds you deliver 250 damage up to 270 meters.

Why take 6 tonnes MG's & Ammo that deliver 320 damage over 200 seconds within 100 meters - or 160 at 150 meters.

I think I answered those questions.

[Esplodin]

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

I don't think you've quite worked out your DPS based on ToT properly. The SLas does 4 damage-per-second-on-target (3 damage in 0.75 seconds) which would be the same as a MG if it had a dps of 4.

You are correct, and I've updated my synopsis.

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

However if you have more than 0.75 seconds firing time on your target the MGs dps remains at 4 as you continue firing

At the increased risk of getting PPD/AC20/etc into the next life for each tick of the clock.

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

without having to worry about heat or losing the few seconds DPS if the enemy zigs when you expected them to zag.

With the added risk of ammo explosion, as well as limited ammo. If ammo was kept at 150 dmg/ton, I'd be in favor of keeping it in line with other ballistics, a 4MG spider has under 9.5 seconds of dakka per ton. Without sacrificing engine or armor, I can cram 2 tons. Self limiting dakka FTW, no?

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Personally I'd like to see MG-Arrays added so we can stick more on each ballistic slot, possibly with more ammo-per-ton added, but I don't think the basic stats of MGs need changing.

Basic stats on MG are an abomination and need to be removed from the game or fixed. Entire mechs are worse then useless without it.

[Joseph Mallan]

General Taskeen, on 14 March 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

And the myth has spread unfortunately. Just like the Osama was killed Myth. Legendary.

No MG defender to date has ever shown live tests of what's it like for a Trial with 2 MG's. Balance starts at the Trial and Stock. "Just put some more M249 and BOOLETS on there Bruh, and crit seek and wait for Infantry Consumable for 25MC Bruh to shoot M249 at Enemy Soldier with BOOLETS."

The SAW is not the MG used on a Mech. if they used the fractional accounting like from MaxTech or the 0.25 ton machine Gun of the Clans things would be different. throwing a few 50 cals on a Mech would be some nice high powered anti infantry weapons with little weight in retrospect. however a means to have smaller weapons wasn't really hammered out till battle Armor construction rules came to the table. (I was involved with testing those )

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 March 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Heeden]

Terror Teddy, on 14 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Not really - it is basically ANY hull with multiple MG hull amongst light mechs.

ANY 20-30 tonner with multiple ballistic points becomes the lesser choice if I can be more efficient with another weapon system - not to mention that there are several weapons with greater range and damage.

SRM2 + 100 missiles = 1,43 DPS and can dish out 250 damage per tonne.

For 2 tonnes total over 175 seconds you deliver 250 damage up to 270 meters.

Why take 6 tonnes MG's & Ammo that deliver 320 damage over 200 seconds within 100 meters - or 160 at 150 meters.

I mean it's a problem with all the Spiders, if you think the 5K is bad pity the poor 5V who only gets 2 critical slots for his chest lasers. The 5K can take some form of LLas and 4MGs for back-up, the 5V can only have 2 MPLas tops (but lots of jump-jets).

I agree it's pointless taking 6 tons of MGs and Ammo, but I have no problem taking 3 tons of MGs and ammo and 5 tons of ERLLas. It compares favourably with the other SDRs for range, damage and heat efficiency.

[CancR]

SLs do 3 dps, and generate a little bit of heat as a trade off
MGs should do 1 dps for no heat.

Any more is too much but any less is to little.

[Joseph Mallan]

CancR, on 14 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

SLs do 3 dps, and generate a little bit of heat as a trade off
MGs should do 1 dps for no heat.

Any more is too much but any less is to little.

According to Ohm's chart a small laser does 1 damage per second. Just sayin'

[Esplodin]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

According to Ohm's chart a small laser does 1 damage per second. Just sayin'

Actually it does 3 damage in .75 seconds with 2.25 seconds of cooldown. While the beam is active it is 4dps, and 1 dps for the entire weapon cycle. As a light, I'm not standing around on target for an extra 2 sec just because.

[Shifty Eyes]

AlexEss, on 14 March 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

To be honest they should not have been in at all.

But to use them smart is to use them at exposed areas. They are still very weak but there at least they do some good.

Using them on mechs is like attacking a modern tank with a 50 cal... sure you migh get lucky and if you can shoot at a place without armour you might stop it. but beyond that it is mostly annoying.

I think other people have already addressed this, but I'll add my 2 cents for good measure.

the A-10 Thunderbolt is a modern aircraft armed with a rotary cannon designed to take out tanks. I'd imagine that a BattleMech-caliber MG would be even more powerful than this.

EDIT: Just for the heck of it, this is the actual cannon mounted on A-10's. It weighs less than half a ton, but there are other modern autocannons that weigh over a ton. MG's are probably similar to these bad boys, but with better technology/materials.

Of course this is just a game, so realism isn't at the top of the priority list. But I do agree that MGs should be buffed to be useful against armor. I loved boating MG's on my mechs in previous MechWarrior games for city battles and such. Their range and their ammunition limit are natural equalizers, as well as the fact that (as many have pointed out) you gotta be firing on the enemy constantly to get full DPS.

Edited by Shifty Eyes, 14 March 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Heeden]

Esplodin, on 14 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

At the increased risk of getting PPD/AC20/etc into the next life for each tick of the clock.

That's a risk light pilots take every time they start up their engines, but coming from the right angle, dancing well and the Spider's favourite trick of jumping over heads can give a lot of up-time on larger, slower mechs.

Quote

With the added risk of ammo explosion, as well as limited ammo. If ammo was kept at 150 dmg/ton, I'd be in favor of keeping it in line with other ballistics, a 4MG spider has under 9.5 seconds of dakka per ton. Without sacrificing engine or armor, I can cram 2 tons. Self limiting dakka FTW, no?

At current rates a 4 MG Spider has 50 seconds of dakka per ton, and I can find room for 5 tons on mine with full engine, armour and jump-jets.

Quote

Basic stats on MG are an abomination and need to be removed from the game or fixed. Entire mechs are worse then useless without it.

If you're referring to trial mechs, a lot of them are worse than useless anyway. Look at the Jenners - 100kph and 10 single-heat-sinks to power 4 MLas.

[CancR]

Esplodin, on 14 March 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Actually it does 3 damage in .75 seconds with 2.25 seconds of cooldown. While the beam is active it is 4dps, and 1 dps for the entire weapon cycle. As a light, I'm not standing around on target for an extra 2 sec just because.

This.
Flamers and Mg need to be brought up to their correct place.

[Esplodin]

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

At current rates a 4 MG Spider has 50 seconds of dakka per ton, and I can find room for 5 tons on mine with full engine, armour and jump-jets.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c22405e1a008e9c

Or a more useful config:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0cc0917bf4b5f44

Granted more than 2, but not 5 without sacrificing a backup weapon completely.

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

If you're referring to trial mechs, a lot of them are worse than useless anyway. Look at the Jenners - 100kph and 10 single-heat-sinks to power 4 MLas.

I'm talking about the weapon system, not trial mechs. (where the fudge did that come from?) It's trash, and the marginal DPS it gives is not worth the risk of ammo explosion and crit slots. The fact that there are mechs that rely on it just makes it more tragic.

Edited by Esplodin, 14 March 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[BD Magnum]

I think 2 DPS is fine. In TT, an MG and an AC/2 do the same DPS. In MWO, both require constant fire. An AC/2 has a huge range and velocity advantage, but is obviously harder to fit. The MG also does its damage in smaller increments. The only reason I'd be against matching the DPS at 4 is that an MG is heatless. In TT, the difference between 0 and 1 heat per shot is negligible; in MWO, it's enormous.

[General Taskeen]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

The SAW is not the MG used on a Mech. if they used the fractional accounting like from MaxTech or the 0.25 ton machine Gun of the Clans things would be different. throwing a few 50 cals on a Mech would be some nice high powered anti infantry weapons with little weight in retrospect. however a means to have smaller weapons wasn't really hammered out till battle Armor construction rules came to the table. (I was involved with testing those )

? People think it is, which is hilarious. Look at my Mech CALL OF DUTY SAW MG-42 MACHINE GUN SHOOT CRIT BOOLETS LAWL. PGI: "We've just announced MG BOOLET UPGRADE CONSUMABLE, MAKE BOOLETS DO DAMAGE LAWL for 25 MC."

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 March 2013 - 11:48 AM.