463 replies to this topic

[Khell DarkWolf]

I'm on the fence with this issue.

We and myself do boat weapons (close or long range) but it has been proven time and time again that it is much more efficient to focus your mech (player) into a role then bringing a hybrid mech with different ranged weapons. According to canon, an Atlas is supposed to do this very well but this just falls on its feet.

Generalist loadouts will never work, and this part in because focusing on either a close or long range aspect is cheaper to do in tonnage equip. You simply cannot do a generalist build because of how much the weight of weapons (& ammo) take to achieve something like this.

You want an example? Try playing with the original non hero dragons like a 5N, they were supposed to be generalist loadout playstyle mechs to cannon. Fast hit & run.

How about a 2X or 4X Cataphract? Not traditional but there is no way you can outfit a mech to be better at both close and long range because when all 3 weapon types are involved, trying to fit them together gets messy and intensive for weight before even including crit slot space.

It is why we see so much "Boating" as you put it, because specialized mechs are milestones better to squeeze in every last weight ton and crit space.

[ragingmunkyz]

matux, on 14 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Agreed it needs to be addressed, I've seen soo much illegal mooring every day the past few months its getting bad.

I worked at a marina as a kid, so this probably made me laugh way more than it should have.

Drives me nuts every time I see boats speeding around river city, don't they know that's a no-wake zone? The river city Harbormaster is pretty useless at his job...

Edited by ragingmunkyz, 14 March 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Silentium]

The yeoman should be in game, and it should carry ECM.

/hides

[armyof1]

Boating is a problem, whether it's LRM, SRM or PPC. The advantages of boating often outweighs the disadvantages, because most mechs are pretty fragile and fairly easily broken when attacked by different boats in their optimum ranges. And I really don't care at all whether it's canon or works fine in TT. It's making so few mech loadouts remain viable because the boats tend to be superior to versatile mechs, which in the long run means you'll have to stick to a few superior mech builds and variants or always be at an disadvantage. In the long run it makes the game go stale real quick and make players move on to other games.

Edited by armyof1, 14 March 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

HRR Insanity, on 14 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

The problem is not the number of weapons... it's all the weapons hitting the same spot. Pinpoint convergence breaks the damage model.

Breaks the damage model of a somewhat poorly balanced TT game that relied on random damage dice...but that's ok. Not everything has to translate directly from TT to RT (as I'm sure you'd agree). It's more about maintaining the spirit of the game/IP/franchise than the specific rules I would say.

BlackSquirrel, on 14 March 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Well get ready for more when coolant flushes come out... Honestly boating AKA alpha just needs a higher penalty after x amount of shots.

Why?

[TexAce]

http://mwomercs.com/...03#entry2033603

I made a similar topic recently.

I hope something happens and the devs adress it.

[Khell DarkWolf]

This also doesn't help that in MWO, were playing in a "Battle Arena" style matchmaking with limited maps to play with which makes it so the players focus so much more on boating since were all crammed into a map with boundaries (hence battle arena).

If we originally had maps that were as big as MW3 and MW4 where you had to travel to waypoints instead of our current maps, I'd bet my dollars to donuts that you would see less boating and more generalist loadouts which were more to cannon.

[Sheraf]

This game needs a tutorial to help people figure out how to play as a team, and play their role.

[Lukoi Banacek]

armyof1, on 14 March 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Boating is a problem, whether it's LRM, SRM or PPC. The advantages of boating often outweighs the disadvantages, because most mechs are pretty fragile and fairly easily broken when attacked by different boats in their optimum ranges. And I really don't care at all whether it's canon or works fine in TT. It's making so few mech loadouts remain viable because the boats tend to be superior to versatile mechs, which in the long run means you'll have to stick to a few superior mech builds and variants or always be at an disadvantage. In the long run it makes the game go stale real quick and make players move on to other games.

See, I don't agree with this opinion at all.

I think there are a TON of viable builds out there. Frankly, where do people draw the line to decide something is boating? I mean there are obvious ones like the mutliPPC stalkers, LL Phracts, ac40 cats and splat cats....

But regardless of those, people complain about anyone putting more than 1-2 of any one item on a Mech and cry foul.

Boats lead to efficiencies but sacrfice flexibility and good pilots, especially good TEAMS of pilots easily overcome the advantages of boated Mechs ime.

Someone here (on forums not necc this thread) argued about a platoon having multiple weapons to meet various needs in the infantry as the logical reason that Mechs should do the same, but that's a false analogy. A Platoon of infantrymen is more akin to a Lance of Mechs....and 4 boating Mechs are easy prey for a good team of 4 complementary Mechs. You see that over and over again in matches, both competitive and casual.

Yes, some builds are going to emerge as the "best" builds at the top tiers of competitive play, but that's ok. Not everything has to be viable, not everything has to be balanced at that level of competition. The best pilots and more importantly the best TEAMs will find the combinations that work best, succeed with them and people will try to emulate those builds and tactics. Simple fact of life.

Not every build, weapon, item needs to earn a participation medal which is all too often what people who complain about boating are actually doing, whether they realize it or not.

Khell DarkWolf, on 14 March 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

If we originally had maps that were as big as MW3 and MW4 where you had to travel to waypoints instead of our current maps, I'd bet my dollars to donuts that you would see less boating and more generalist loadouts which were more to cannon.

Truth. Some folks just need to be patient.

[Tykelau]

STOP BOATING MECHS NOW

[Kahoumono]

Diminishing returns on the weapons will do the trick, you wouldn'[t boat ppcs if your forth one does half the damage. Or spike the heat on alpha'ing stacked weapons.

Edited by Kahoumono, 14 March 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Johnny Flyswatter]

Escef, on 14 March 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

They have addressed it. We have the A1 Catapult, which traditionally boats LRMs, the 8Q Awesome boats PPCs, and the 4S Hunchback, which boats Medium Lasers. They're cool with boating.

I'm ok with boating as I do it with several of my builds. Two thumbs up for it. An additional two thumbs up for my opponents who can kill me because if I am caught boating there is a significant chance that I will suffer dire consequences...and I'm ok with that because I knew what I was getting into before I hit launch

Just my $0.02. I know many will disagree.

JF

Edit: grammar

Edited by Johnny Flyswatter, 14 March 2013 - 05:29 PM.

[armyof1]

Lukoi, on 14 March 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

See, I don't agree with this opinion at all.

I think there are a TON of viable builds out there. Frankly, where do people draw the line to decide something is boating? I mean there are obvious ones like the mutliPPC stalkers, LL Phracts, ac40 cats and splat cats....

But regardless of those, people complain about anyone putting more than 1-2 of any one item on a Mech and cry foul.

Boats lead to efficiencies but sacrfice flexibility and good pilots, especially good TEAMS of pilots easily overcome the advantages of boated Mechs ime.

Someone here (on forums not necc this thread) argued about a platoon having multiple weapons to meet various needs in the infantry as the logical reason that Mechs should do the same, but that's a false analogy. A Platoon of infantrymen is more akin to a Lance of Mechs....and 4 boating Mechs are easy prey for a good team of 4 complementary Mechs. You see that over and over again in matches, both competitive and casual.

Yes, some builds are going to emerge as the "best" builds at the top tiers of competitive play, but that's ok. Not everything has to be viable, not everything has to be balanced at that level of competition. The best pilots and more importantly the best TEAMs will find the combinations that work best, succeed with them and people will try to emulate those builds and tactics. Simple fact of life.

Not every build, weapon, item needs to earn a participation medal which is all too often what people who complain about boating are actually doing, whether they realize it or not.

Ehh I don't know what threads you've been reading about the 3LL boat or the 4ML boat but I've never seen anyone complain about those things. It is the usual suspects that can pretty much kill most lights or sometimes even mediums with one alpha that is NOT a headshot. That I think is such an obvious problem I don't see how one can even make a valid argument against it, that about half of the mechs available in MWO right now can be either killed or get really close to be being killed with the push of a single button from some mech builds. All the arguments about L2P or just shoot the ear off is pretty much moot, you should not have mechs that can pack that much push one-button damage where (almost) all your weapons will focus the damage since you're carrying a large amount of the same weapon, because those builds will be clearly superior simply because a destroyed mech can't shoot you anymore.

Edited by armyof1, 14 March 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Eddrick]

RiceyFighter, on 14 March 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

I don't particularly like the idea of A1 SRM boat makes any below average player to good player.

The Custom Variant "ButterBee" is just that to a slightly less extreme. It has four SRM6 instead of six.

The Custom Variant section is near the bottom.

Quote

Custom Variants

• Catapult CPLT-C1 Jenny "Butterbee" - The personal ride of MechWarrior Jenny Templeton, this variant of the Catapult replaces the standard arm-mounted LRM-15s with a quartet of SRM-6 missile launchers, two in each arm.^[16] BV (2.0) = 1,242^[17]

Edited by Eddrick, 14 March 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Kahoumono, on 14 March 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Diminishing returns on the weapons will do the trick, you wouldn'[t boat ppcs if your forth one does half the damage. Or spike the heat on alpha'ing stacked weapons.

Doesn't PPC stacking already cause heat issues?

[Ialti]

Edit to remove double quote.

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The more I try to play this game, the more boats I see. It is either SRM boats, LRM boats, or PPC boats and they are really ruining the game. Mechs are simply dying too fast; the game is feeling more and more like an arcade shooter than a strategy game. I'm getting to a point where I feel like the game needs further mech restrictions (Like engine restriction for the 3L) to make balanced builds more viable and get mechs playing the rolls they were intended (3L was never meant to be a brawler, Catapult not meant to be a brawler)

I have no idea what to do about assaults though. Lore assaults are designed to be able to attack at all ranges to achieve balance, but with any sort of customization, people are going to specialize in short or long range and dominate the hybrid assaults.

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

I would suggest that you adapt. Sorry for being blunt that that's exactly it--everything has a weakness, learn to counter the boaty builds. If you want a balanced mech, find a group of teammates who also want balanced mechs and go out and fight in them. But don't make other people play your game.

I say this as a tinkerer--I build all kinds of mechs, boats or not, and I love them all equally. Because each one has its own unique defining characteristics. I've built both, I've fought against both, and I truly enjoy playing a game where I can find both. I don't think I would like this game if your restrictions were placed upon me.

Edited by Ialti, 14 March 2013 - 05:40 PM.

[Eddrick]

Royalewithcheese, on 14 March 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Doesn't PPC stacking already cause heat issues?

It does. Many just don't care about the heat issues. Because, the only risk is shutting down for a few seconds. Adding effects to heat below 100% may change that. But, it also may not if all the person cares about is a the Alpha Strike.

[Targetloc]

[Moromillas]

You're actually correct. Piranha does in fact need to address boating.

There are too many players on the forums posting about how it breaks the game or ruins it, we need a sticky thread from Piranha, so we don't have to see threads like these again.

Edited by Moromillas, 14 March 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

armyof1, on 14 March 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Ehh I don't know what threads you've been reading about the 3LL boat or the 4ML boat but I've never seen anyone complain about those things. It is the usual suspects that can pretty much kill most lights or sometimes even mediums with one alpha that is NOT a headshot. That I think is such an obvious problem I don't see how one can even make a valid argument against it, that about half of the mechs available in MWO right now can be either killed or get really close to be being killed with the push of a single button from some mech builds. All the arguments about L2P or just shoot the ear off is pretty much moot, you should not have mechs that can pack that much push one-button damage where (almost) all your weapons will focus the damage since you're carrying a large amount of the same weapon, because those builds will be clearly superior because a destroyed mech can't shoot you anymore.

I'm not saying 3LL "boats" are OP, I'm saying that when is it boating? When the alpha reaches what number is it an issue?

5LL Phracts are boats...are they not part of your complaint? Let's narrow it down here....who are your problem children, because as you've already alluded, it's not the simple act of boating.

A1? What else? And if the A1 is too terrible at 270m I'd argue that's a tactical issue and not an issue with the Mech. It's literally hamstrung by the build it's chosen to take.

As for LRM "boats," when do they become a boat? How many LRM's does it take to be a dastardly boat? When I've died to a boat it's been my fault every time. It's been me taking water on RCN when I KNEW I should have stuck with the buildings because an LRM Mech was ahead of me. It was me rounding the corner of the caldera (in f6 I think) to chase a squirrell without knowing what was on the other side and getting immediately cored by a waiting LRM Mech on the other side....bottom line, when I've died to "extreme" Mechs, it's been my impatience getting me killed.

I love seeing 6PPC stalkers, Splatcats and LRM "Boats" because when I am even the tiniest bit patient and tactically smart about it, they are awesome fun to pick apart...EVERY SINGLE TIME. And I'm no ace pilot, but I'm solid enough to recognize that they've chosen to limit themselves and it's a smarter pilot that recognizes the limitations and exploits them.

People complain they can't approach the LRM boat because there's a splat cat defending it, or they can't maintain range on the splatcat because the LRM boat is covering it.....guess what, that's not OP Mechs...that's OP TEAMWORK you have to defeat.

Adapt or die, that simple. Stop trying to rush in and brawl everything with "mixed" weapons and play tactically. You'll find LRM boats aren't the boogieman, nor or are SRM heavy Mechs or multiPPC/LL anythings.