463 replies to this topic

[Alymbic]

[Eddrick]

Moromillas, on 14 March 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

You're actually correct. Piranha does in fact need to address boating.

There are too many players on the forums posting about how it breaks the game or ruins it, we need a sticky thread from Piranha, so we don't have to threads like these again.

Ironicly, someone else said something earlyer stating there was too many pinned threads.

[Royalewithcheese]

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I have no idea what to do about assaults though. Lore assaults are designed to be able to attack at all ranges to achieve balance, but with any sort of customization, people are going to specialize in short or long range and dominate the hybrid assaults.

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

IMO since most assaults can't control the range of engagement it always makes sense (unless you're running a specialist build in a team environment) to be ready for close range. You can throw on weapons that hit hard at close range and provide reach like LLas, UAC5, and Gauss. I had 2xUAC5 on my DDC for a while, and they were great for suppression and softening enemies up. (And really, that's all you can expect at long range from a non-specialist).

[Kingdok]

Eddrick, on 14 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

It does. Many just don't care about the heat issues. Because, the only risk is shutting down for a few seconds. Adding effects to heat below 100% may change that. But, it also may not if all the person cares about is a the Alpha Strike.

don't forget the whole 'blowing your own self up' risk inherent in running extremely high heat. Shutdown is not the worst thing that can happen to you if you're not careful.

[Mackman]

Lukoi, on 14 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm not saying 3LL "boats" are OP, I'm saying that when is it boating? When the alpha reaches what number is it an issue?

5LL Phracts are boats...are they not part of your complaint? Let's narrow it down here....who are your problem children, because as you've already alluded, it's not the simple act of boating.

A1? What else? And if the A1 is too terrible at 270m I'd argue that's a tactical issue and not an issue with the Mech. It's literally hamstrung by the build it's chosen to take.

As for LRM "boats," when do they become a boat? How many LRM's does it take to be a dastardly boat? When I've died to a boat it's been my fault every time. It's been me taking water on RCN when I KNEW I should have stuck with the buildings because an LRM Mech was ahead of me. It was me rounding the corner of the caldera (in f6 I think) to chase a squirrell without knowing what was on the other side and getting immediately cored by a waiting LRM Mech on the other side....bottom line, when I've died to "extreme" Mechs, it's been my impatience getting me killed.

I love seeing 6PPC stalkers, Splatcats and LRM "Boats" because when I am even the tiniest bit patient and tactically smart about it, they are awesome fun to pick apart...EVERY SINGLE TIME. And I'm no ace pilot, but I'm solid enough to recognize that they've chosen to limit themselves and it's a smarter pilot that recognizes the limitations and exploits them.

People complain they can't approach the LRM boat because there's a splat cat defending it, or they can't maintain range on the splatcat because the LRM boat is covering it.....guess what, that's not OP Mechs...that's OP TEAMWORK you have to defeat.

Adapt or die, that simple. Stop trying to rush in and brawl everything with "mixed" weapons and play tactically. You'll find LRM boats aren't the boogieman, nor or are SRM heavy Mechs or multiPPC/LL anythings.

I actually think it's as simple as this. People say, "I die too quickly! Nerf boats!" When really they should be thinking, "I die too quickly... I should really play smarter."

You say you want more tactics and strategy in the game? Then freaking play strategically. Don't let your impatience get you killed by LRMs that blot out the sun...

[Lukoi Banacek]

Royalewithcheese, on 14 March 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

IMO since most assaults can't control the range of engagement it always makes sense (unless you're running a specialist build in a team environment) to be ready for close range. You can throw on weapons that hit hard at close range and provide reach like LLas, UAC5, and Gauss. I had 2xUAC5 on my DDC for a while, and they were great for suppression and softening enemies up. (And really, that's all you can expect at long range from a non-specialist).

Another thing to consider here is the Assaults by themselves are not going to dictate range anyway. It's a team game. Part of keeping range as an assault is having close range assaults or other mechs screening the enemy from you, allowing you to snipe or pour firepower onto the enemy. It's a team concept.

Wanting to be able to do everything well in a team oriented game is a false premise and part of the main reason people are anti-boat.

[Royalewithcheese]

Also, ppl who don't like boats better be ready for March 19th because this is the Jagermech theme song:

[armyof1]

Lukoi, on 14 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm not saying 3LL "boats" are OP, I'm saying that when is it boating? When the alpha reaches what number is it an issue?

5LL Phracts are boats...are they not part of your complaint? Let's narrow it down here....who are your problem children, because as you've already alluded, it's not the simple act of boating.

A1? What else? And if the A1 is too terrible at 270m I'd argue that's a tactical issue and not an issue with the Mech. It's literally hamstrung by the build it's chosen to take.

As for LRM "boats," when do they become a boat? How many LRM's does it take to be a dastardly boat? When I've died to a boat it's been my fault every time. It's been me taking water on RCN when I KNEW I should have stuck with the buildings because an LRM Mech was ahead of me. It was me rounding the corner of the caldera (in f6 I think) to chase a squirrell without knowing what was on the other side and getting immediately cored by a waiting LRM Mech on the other side....bottom line, when I've died to "extreme" Mechs, it's been my impatience getting me killed.

I love seeing 6PPC stalkers, Splatcats and LRM "Boats" because when I am even the tiniest bit patient and tactically smart about it, they are awesome fun to pick apart...EVERY SINGLE TIME. And I'm no ace pilot, but I'm solid enough to recognize that they've chosen to limit themselves and it's a smarter pilot that recognizes the limitations and exploits them.

People complain they can't approach the LRM boat because there's a splat cat defending it, or they can't maintain range on the splatcat because the LRM boat is covering it.....guess what, that's not OP Mechs...that's OP TEAMWORK you have to defeat.

Adapt or die, that simple. Stop trying to rush in and brawl everything with "mixed" weapons and play tactically. You'll find LRM boats aren't the boogieman, nor or are SRM heavy Mechs or multiPPC/LL anythings.

No I'm sorry the L2P argument loses its' validity at a certain point, because some things that are pointed out as mistakes would simply not be mistakes at all if some mechs wouldn't be so clearly overpowered. You should be able to turn a corner without being psychic while piloting a Jenner, instead of now when every corner you turn can be considered a mistake simply because there might be an SRMcat there that can one-shot kill you. You should be able to move from one cover to the next and be exposed for a few seconds without 60 LRMs or 6 PPCs turning you into a heap of trash.

I can't give you any exact numbers where the line should be drawn to be considered boating, but what I do know is that the most extreme boating needs to be fixed and fixed soon, or else MWO will degrade to more and more boating, because let's face it, the advantages are obvious, that's why we see it so often. Yes one LRMboat won't be invincible, but what about a team with 2 LRMboats, 3 SRMcats and 3 PPCboats with decent players? What kind of mind-boggling teamwork would you need to use in the opposing team without boating to take that down? At some stage you just have to admit there is something wrong and it needs to be fixed.

[Moromillas]

Eddrick, on 14 March 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Ironicly, someone else said something earlyer stating there was too many pinned threads.

Nerf scrolling. Too OP.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Mackman, on 14 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

I actually think it's as simple as this. People say, "I die too quickly! Nerf boats!" When really they should be thinking, "I die too quickly... I should really play smarter."

You say you want more tactics and strategy in the game? Then freaking play strategically. Don't let your impatience get you killed by LRMs that blot out the sun...

You're talking to the anti-boat crowd, not me correct?

[Davers]

Mackman, on 14 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

I actually think it's as simple as this. People say, "I die too quickly! Nerf boats!" When really they should be thinking, "I die too quickly... I should really play smarter."

You say you want more tactics and strategy in the game? Then freaking play strategically. Don't let your impatience get you killed by LRMs that blot out the sun...

When people say they want strategy they mean 'Should I circle strafe clockwise or counterclockwise?'

[Mackman]

Lukoi, on 14 March 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

You're talking to the anti-boat crowd, not me correct?

Correct. I think your post made the key point that needs to be considered in this debate. Of course, if the devs decide that they don't want boating in their game... well, it's their game, and they need to decide what's likely to produce the perfect balance of fun and competition.

[Lukoi Banacek]

armyof1, on 14 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

No I'm sorry the L2P argument loses its' validity at a certain point, because some things that are pointed out as mistakes would simply not be mistakes at all if some mechs wouldn't be so clearly overpowered. You should be able to turn a corner without being psychic while piloting a Jenner, instead of now when every corner you turn can be considered a mistake simply because there might be an SRMcat there that can one-shot kill you. You should be able to move from one cover to the next and be exposed for a few seconds without 60 LRMs or 6 PPCs turning you into a heap of trash.

I can't give you any exact numbers where the line should be drawn to be considered boating, but what I do know is that the most extreme boating needs to be fixed and fixed soon, or else MWO will degrade to more and more boating, because let's face it, the advantages are obvious, that's why we see it so often. Yes one LRMboat won't be invincible, but what about a team with 2 LRMboats, 3 SRMcats and 3 PPCboats with decent players? What kind of mind-boggling teamwork would you need to use in the opposing team without boating to take that down? At some stage you just have to admit there is something wrong and it needs to be fixed.

You can't define the problem, but you claim there is one (I can't draw the line, but something "sucks" about "certain builds"). A constantly moving "target" isn't a premise. Strike 1.

L2P loses it's validity how? If you understand and employ the tactics necessary to exploit the weaknesses of boating builds, then boating becomes less of a problem, assuming it even is one to begin with. So your stance is you shouldn't have to learn to play to defeat the tactics and builds of opponents? Strike 2.

And what about your theorycraft issue of a team with decent players and 8 cheese builds? Ever play at the competitive level? You'll see a ton of 3L/DDC builds. Fewer and fewer full boats, although there are some awesome Splatcat rush teams out there....frankly there are more Pophracts than LRM boats by a wide margin where the better players are playing.

So, you work tactically to avoid the LRM fire using ECM and cover, you isolate a PPC user or two with quick movement forcing them to fire and eventually overheat, close with them and kill them and then move on to the next pocket of targets you isolate and overcome.

There are other factors to team play oriented games outside of simply the builds. Terrain for one. If we were fighting on a flat plain, then maybe you could argue the LRM's and PPCs covering the approach of the splat cats might be a challenge, but there's TERRAIN. They can't see everyone on your team in the open, vulnerable to the various weapon ranges that you're complaining about unless you LET them through your movement without cover. Simple tactics. Strike 3.

Until you can at least define the problem you're complaining about, you argument, complaint whathave you has no real merit. What specifically are you complaining about? When is it "boating" and where does become OP?

[GalaxyBluestar]

Tykelau, on 14 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

STOP BOATING MECHS NOW

water is op!

Psikez, on 14 March 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

This needs a deal with it sunglasses GIF

at your command!

[Ialti]

Davers, on 14 March 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

When people say they want strategy they mean 'Should I circle strafe clockwise or counterclockwise?'

Or run away, or find an ally nearby, or just not separate myself from my team in the first place, or initiate the circle!fight while subtly moving myself into cover so I can escape, or any one of a million things your snippy little post forgets about.

[Davers]

The only way to get rid of boating is to give all mechs 3 hard points- one of each. And then the Hunchback will still be screwed cuz he has a huge RT.

[Lukoi Banacek]

My current Atlas has an alpha of 102....I don't use any one item more than twice...is that OP? I know I can kill a light in one alpha within the right conditions. Is it unfair?

Davers, on 14 March 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

The only way to get rid of boating is to give all mechs 3 hard points- one of each. And then the Hunchback will still be screwed cuz he has a huge RT.

LOL

[Nunspa]

RiceyFighter, on 14 March 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

I don't particularly like the idea of A1 SRM boat makes any below average player to good player. Same with Stalker LRM boats. 2 Good hits = death for any medium mech.

Umm, I HATE to bring this up.... but you do all realise that the SRM Boat Catapult is cannon right?


Custom Variants

• Catapult CPLT-C1 Jenny "Butterbee" - The personal ride of MechWarrior Jenny Templeton, this variant of the Catapult replaces the standard arm-mounted LRM-15s with a quartet of SRM-6 missile launchers, two in each arm.

[Lightfoot]

You'll have to explain this to Technicron Mfg. (Awesome), and Brim Ironworks (Supernova), and alot of other Battletech Mechworks that design the boats. Awesome has 3 ERPPC and the Supernova has 6 ER Large Lasers. I just put those out there as examples, but MechWarrior is filled with boats.

That said the drawback of boats is they have obvious weaknesses, weaknesses that are especially obvious to their pilots. So combat with boats revolves around getting to that weakness.

I look at it this way. When every player brings an SRM or 5xPPC boat, there might be a problem, but they don't because those boats all have flaws or weaknesses.

Like recently I was being chased by a 2xAC20 K2. Chased because I wasn't going to brawl with it, it would win a short range brawl. I was faster by a small bit so I lured it out onto the flat seaward end of River City, then I defeated it with 2xERPPC and some SSRMs while circling it.

Same is true of any boat. Hit their weak spot.

[armyof1]

Lukoi, on 14 March 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

You can't define the problem, but you claim there is one (I can't draw the line, but something "sucks" about "certain builds"). A constantly moving "target" isn't a premise. Strike 1.

L2P loses it's validity how? If you understand and employ the tactics necessary to exploit the weaknesses of boating builds, then boating becomes less of a problem, assuming it even is one to begin with. So your stance is you shouldn't have to learn to play to defeat the tactics and builds of opponents? Strike 2.

And what about your theorycraft issue of a team with decent players and 8 cheese builds? Ever play at the competitive level? You'll see a ton of 3L/DDC builds. Fewer and fewer full boats, although there are some awesome Splatcat rush teams out there....frankly there are more Pophracts than LRM boats by a wide margin where the better players are playing.

So, you work tactically to avoid the LRM fire using ECM and cover, you isolate a PPC user or two with quick movement forcing them to fire and eventually overheat, close with them and kill them and then move on to the next pocket of targets you isolate and overcome.

There are other factors to team play oriented games outside of simply the builds. Terrain for one. If we were fighting on a flat plain, then maybe you could argue the LRM's and PPCs covering the approach of the splat cats might be a challenge, but there's TERRAIN. They can't see everyone on your team in the open, vulnerable to the various weapon ranges that you're complaining about unless you LET them through your movement without cover. Simple tactics. Strike 3.

Until you can at least define the problem you're complaining about, you argument, complaint whathave you has no real merit. What specifically are you complaining about? When is it "boating" and where does become OP?

Hold on, don't try to twist my words to suit your arguments. I've clearly pointed out the problems with boating, but just because I can't point out exactly where the line should be drawn for what should be considered boating does not mean the problems with boating has not been explained. You know as well as I do it's a balancing issue that requires plenty of data to draw a conclusion, and to demand that I here and now without any data whatsoever should make the exact outlines of what should or shouldn't be allowed due to boating is beyond unreasonable.

Ok and now you try to skip over my argument to suit your counters. I've clearly stated that what could be considered as mistakes is just based on how much of an advantage the opposing mech has over you. If a build has an unreasonable amount of firepower like the SRMcat, to just refer to L2P is also a way to ignore how broken the SRMcat is.

Once again I was talking about decent players running cheese and as decent players they'd know about all the things you've pointed out with terrain, protect their LRMboats, find cover and high ground to snipe from etc. Did I say anything about cheese build players not needing basic understanding of maps and tactics to be successful? No, so please don't argue as if I did.

Edited by armyof1, 14 March 2013 - 07:00 PM.