463 replies to this topic

[Tice Daurus]

Endgame124, on 15 March 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Argh. Not a fan of every mech being an omni mech, to be honest. Would much prefer tighter reins on customization for non omni mechs.

This should probably read as a "level-headed balance". I agree, IS mechs shouldn't be Omni-mechs. But we should be able to make some moderations and if we want to boat a particular weapon, fine, but within reason and as long as we know if you boat a weapon, you also inherents certain weaknesses with it.

[PropagandaWar]

I have a fix if "Boating" really is a problem. If large amounts of missles are fired at once have them possibly collide into each other. I mean Serms and lerms dont fire ina straight line. PPC's fired all at once may short after first shot (3% chance each alpha). causing the weapon to not be able to converge with the rest the next time around. Just a thought.

[Endgame124]

Tice Daurus, on 15 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

This should probably read as a "level-headed balance". I agree, IS mechs shouldn't be Omni-mechs. But we should be able to make some moderations and if we want to boat a particular weapon, fine, but within reason and as long as we know if you boat a weapon, you also inherents certain weaknesses with it.

That's why I was recommending an Eve Online style attribute / role based system. Sure you CAN boat anything you want on any mech, but to do it most effectively, you'll want to bring the mech with the trait that decreases the stacking penalty the most. Would that be bad?

[xX_Nero_Xx]

for the i cant even count how many times this has been said mechwarrior has always been about boating to fit the max dps on to a mech and go out kill as many as you can b4 you die.
mechwarrior 3 was all about er sm and er med boats few ssrm boats.
mw4 was all about er lrg and ppc guass boats.now if you ever played any of thoose games this is not a suprise to you.
what makes you think things will change.
just wait untill you face ryoken laser boat cant have that in cause its a laser boat masakari a er ppcs boat cant have that vulture or madcat cause of lrms.thor cause of ac boat or guass
guess what there are many stock mechs that are just are boats so cry some more .
you will learn like the rest of us.

[3rdworld]

Endgame124, on 15 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

That's why I was recommending an Eve Online style attribute / role based system. Sure you CAN boat anything you want on any mech, but to do it most effectively, you'll want to bring the mech with the trait that decreases the stacking penalty the most. Would that be bad?

So to boat SRMs, i would need to bring a A1?

[Endgame124]

3rdworld, on 15 March 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

So to boat SRMs, i would need to bring a A1?

Nope - The boating benefit would be on LRMs - check the entry on Sarna:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult

Only one Entry out of 14 mentions SRMs and that is a custom variant named the Butterbee (4 SRM 6s). Sounds like a perfect hero mech that would get a 2 laser hard points, 4 missile hard points and a SRM boating attribute instead of a LRM boating attribute.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Aloha, on 15 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

I don't think the real complaint here is boating. I think the main complaint is how fast a particular "boat" configuration can kill a mech. I mean, nobody is complaining about MG boats, or ML boats. A Splatcat can kill a fresh heavy in a couple of alphas, making it un-fun for the recipient. A 6xPPC Stalker can kill a light mech in one shot. A LRM boat can rain missiles from afar and kill a mech caught out in the open.

The point is, people will always go for the build that can kill in the shortest time. Why expose yourself to the potential danger of being shot back at if you don't have to?

With the removal of missile splash damage of the April 9 patch, it'll be interesting to see how much less effective missile boats will be.

Endgame124, on 15 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

That's why I was recommending an Eve Online style attribute / role based system. Sure you CAN boat anything you want on any mech, but to do it most effectively, you'll want to bring the mech with the trait that decreases the stacking penalty the most. Would that be bad?

I know it's been discussed before, maybe not in this thread, that boating would increase heat at faster levels. That chain firing would come with it's own consequences if you were trying to avoid that (just don't remember what it was).

Personally I don't think it's PGI's issue that boating is possible, that harkened from the origins of BT itself. It's rare that boating is possible, and why it's not as big of an issue as believed in this thread IMO. Especially since the only real boating nerf ever requested if for the Cat mechs...

As a support to my POV, I do believe ECM is somewhat OP, but having only a handful of mechs able to carry it does balance that to a degree.

A pair of lights working in unison can take down a boat pretty effectively, though not quickly in most cases....

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 15 March 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Endgame124, on 15 March 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Nope - The boating benefit would be on LRMs - check the entry on Sarna:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult

Only one Entry out of 14 mentions SRMs and that is a custom variant named the Butterbee (4 SRM 6s). Sounds like a perfect hero mech that would get a 2 laser hard points, 4 missile hard points and a SRM boating attribute instead of a LRM boating attribute.

Alternately, just make LRMs a viable weapon and ppl will put them on their Catapults.

[DaZur]

I'm sorry... Try as I might, I can't get behind the whole "anti-boating" hullabaloo.

I guess a lot has to do with how one approaches their game-play... When I see a Splatcat, I see a "challenge" not a OP boater. My 1st instinct is to either stay out of range or try to approach it's blind-spots. Same goes for the Toasters... I know I can out-maneuver it and flank.

There seems to a be pretty pervasive premise around these parts that anything that presents a challenge has to be OP and as such nerfed. Never mind the fact that each and every one of these "boats" has an exploitable weakness and with patients and tactics... all are defeatable as another...

[KuruptU4Fun]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Alternately, just make LRMs a viable weapon and ppl will put them on their Catapults.

But how do we do that without relying on one piece of equipment to negate the flood of incoming missiles?

[Kaziganthi]

The only way to stop boating at this point in time is to use stock standard canon mechs.

[Royalewithcheese]

KuruptU4Fun, on 15 March 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

But how do we do that without relying on one piece of equipment to negate the flood of incoming missiles?

IMO that's part of the issue with them. I think that the whole ECM/LRM/BAP/AMS/SSRM family of gameplay elements needs to be re-looked at TBH. Splatcats IMO are what happens to 6-missile hardpoint mechs in a game where there are 1-2 viable options for missile hardpoints

[Royalewithcheese]

Kaziganthi, on 15 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

The only way to stop boating at this point in time is to use stock standard canon mechs.

But a lot of the stock mechs are boats You've got the Swayback, the A1, the Jenner-F, the Awesome 8-Q...

[Shadowsword8]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

That hasn't been my experience. A team that sticks together and runs dedicated brawlers (defined here as a DDC, brawlstalker, or something that stands a reasonable chance of winning a close-range fight with a DDC or brawlstalker) can generally hold off splatcats. They're dangerous if they can get behind you or catch you by yourself, but they're fragile for brawlers.

I second that. I run A1s and assaults, and I can assure you that a cataptult that face an enemy that saw it coming is nothing special. You have lots of firepower, but it's dispersed all over the target on the first half of the fight, and the second half will be a roll of hte dice between your superior firepower with low armor, or his own moderate firepower with high armor. And as soon as you lose an ear, you turn virtually useless, as you lose your ability to kill someone before he turn his back away from you.

[Kingdok]

sycocys, on 15 March 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Is it exciting that no one takes advantage of the huge downsides to boat builds?

Looking at the poll results, where a majority of voters agree that boating does not present a problem, I submit that the majority of players HAVE figured out how to take advantage of these weaknesses. We are the guys who are NOT qq'ing about it.

[Kaziganthi]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

But a lot of the stock mechs are boats You've got the Swayback, the A1, the Jenner-F, the Awesome 8-Q...

Theyre variants..not stock mechs.

[Kingdok]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

The issue with the "canon" robots is mostly that the vast majority of their configs need tweaking or overhauling, and their intended roles (those "balanced" mechs with like 1xLRM5/1xSRM2/1xPPC/1xSmLas are a good example) are not always viable roles for a mechwarrior game. Adding rules in attempt to push the configs closer to stock isn't going to change the fact that people want to run (and will find ways to run) brawlers/poptarts/skirmishers/etc.

and when are we going to get the Vindicator, anyway... sigh. I rather like that little guy.

[3rdworld]

Endgame124, on 15 March 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Nope - The boating benefit would be on LRMs - check the entry on Sarna:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult

Only one Entry out of 14 mentions SRMs and that is a custom variant named the Butterbee (4 SRM 6s). Sounds like a perfect hero mech that would get a 2 laser hard points, 4 missile hard points and a SRM boating attribute instead of a LRM boating attribute.

I see a bunch of mechs that boat missiles.

Are SRMs missiles?

[KuruptU4Fun]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

IMO that's part of the issue with them. I think that the whole ECM/LRM/BAP/AMS/SSRM family of gameplay elements needs to be re-looked at TBH. Splatcats IMO are what happens to 6-missile hardpoint mechs in a game where there are 1-2 viable options for missile hardpoints

Wow, that's a lot of things to address just to minimize boating.

I think there is a big misconception about the capabilities of BAP in the first place. It gathers information ONLY, it does not (Or should not) do anything otherwise, like quicken targeting for LRM's.

AMS is a shield, but a small one. My best example of that is watching a scene in Braveheart where you see a guy try to avoid a rain of arrows using a shield about the side of a plate. If AMS were to be buffed, I think using it more as a gun designed to fire FLAK with a smaller ammo capacity. Currently it seems to shoot missiles directly. FLAK rounds would provide a bigger shield to some degree.

SSRM's were designed to be boated, but currently with no drawbacks. Again, adding collective heat would help solve that IMO.

[3rdworld]

Kaziganthi, on 15 March 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Theyre variants..not stock mechs.