463 replies to this topic

[Arctourus]

boats, boats, boats, boats, what's wrong with them? As mentioned, they exist in the official game universe so there is no point in eliminating them here. A catapult with a bunch of lrms is no different than a hunchback with a bunch of mlas. If all you have a bunch of one type of weapon, it's a boat, end of discussion.

The idea is to know your role on the battlefield. LRMs aren't overpowered...players are underthinking when they get shot at with them. Run and hide, use cover, watch where you go and LRMS won't hurt you. Laugh in the face of lrm boats when you run up on them with some pesky light mech and tear them apart because they can't hurt you. Use cover and you avoid ppc boats too...and if you get close, they can't hit you well and overheat too easily. Got a splatcat coming for you? Stay out of range, takes care of that. Any sort of balanced build will easily dispatch one from medium distance.

the boats aren't the problem, your tactics are. I don't boat personally, but I'm glad someone on my team does. those are the tactical points that make this game even more exciting.

[Kingdok]

MaddMaxx, on 15 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

And there was much discussion of that in CB. The Stock designs does not necessarily make the best use of ALL the available Mech space and as such would have left the "customization" portion woefully weak. Given that the DEV adjusted a few designs to allow a more fluid package.

The Trials are Stock and Canon and the word is, they ALL "suck". Some of the configs that when modified, based on even the allowed changes to Canon designs, still "suck".

Apparently, there will always be some "suck" in any Mech design protocol. That is just how things is. Personally, I think that so far the designs have over-all been pretty good and the mix of Mechs seen on the battlefield shows that as a truth.

There are still some favorites, but that is simply human nature. Some will drive what other thinks is the "suck". Each to their own right?

Exactly...

Back in the day, when we had only 4 mechs to choose from (Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult, and Atlas) none of them really 'sucked'. As our lords and masters at PGI have added more chassis to the game, we have come to see that a great many of the canonical designs are not as good as those four. Some are better, with the inclusion of debatable ECM mechanics (Raven 3L) and FPS weapon convergence that never was a factor in TT (Cataphract, Stalker, etc). Some are naturally going to be worse. Mech customization must remain a priority in this game, and it should not be limited any more than it already is.

The trouble I have with these discussions is with all the sanctimonious condescension we throw around. Many members of our community have appointed themselves the authorities on what is 'viable', 'competetive', and 'effective'. I ask you - if I point my whacko build at the enemy, shoot them, and they fall down... is that not viable enough for a day's work? The fact that I am stacking ballistics on my Phract, PPC's on my Atlas, and SRM's on my Stalker (and putting XL engines in all of the above) will give me mixed results. On the whole, I am winning far more than losing.

I reject the notion that anything less than a maxed-out super DPS killer mech is rubbish and insulting to my team mates. Boating builds, balanced builds, cheese builds... whatever. More specifically - whatever works for you, mate.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Welcome to Btech.

Boating is part of the universe.

Go check out a list of canon stock mechs and you'll come to terms with this.

[Major Scumbag]

You sit behind the rest of the entire group. You have advantage of 1k range and can fire without LOS. You have no weapons to defend yourself at all. You relie on your team to protect you cause you are worhless in a brawl. But you get the highest damage listed and making bank on savior bonus. You pilot a mech that takes no skill and hidden. You get rewared for doing nothing but target from max range and launch missles. LRM=Death by Coward

[PANZERBUNNY]

Many an SRM Cat have died running at the enemy and getting zapped to death because they are boating short range weapons.

Even more LRM boats have died due to a single light mech getting within 190m, either tying him up or finishing him off.

[MustrumRidcully]

PANZERBUNNY, on 15 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Many an SRM Cat have died running at the enemy and getting zapped to death because they are boating short range weapons.

Even more LRM boats have died due to a single light mech getting within 190m, either tying him up or finishing him off.

Many a versatile/balanced mech died running into the enemy and getting zapped to death because he ran just right in the middle of the enemy.

I know this because I've done it myself. [/ELO_BOTTOM_FEEDER]

That's why Wolves_X posted that other thread - balance in the high ELO brackets, only there you figure out if mechs die easy because of stupid behavior or if they die (or don't even exist) because they suck.

An 8 man LRM boat team is stupid. A 4 LRM boat and 4 SRM boat team is probably quite dangerous.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 15 March 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[CmndoBrndo]

Buff AMS...

[/thread]

[PANZERBUNNY]

Buffing the AMS ammo loudout per ton would be nice.

[Alvor]

3rdworld, on 15 March 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Mechwarriors 2-4 all had customization, which was much more open than what we currently play. So no this is the franchise and it, except for the first iteration, has customization which would not be canon.

But the game is taking a cola, removing half the ingredients and putting in different ones.

So why argue about how this new drink isn't the old one. It is not relevant.

It appears appears you still and will not understand the purpose of a Franchise.

I could try and waste my time trying to explain but apparently some people refuse or do not want to understand.

So the question is why waste money on a franchise name if your going to ignore its qualities that most customers are expecting? Not to say this publisher is but as a hypothetical.

Besides the fact people have invested real cash and time into this game based on that PGI pledged it would be canon.

So i.e. publisher promised canon so some and maybe most customers are expecting canon.

What is canon? The MW/TT/most novels that the franchise owners deemed canon.

Yes many products where made under the franchise name but due to either tech limits at the time are cutting corners they are not the best translations of the franchise. i.e.



So a poor product using the franchise does not make it canon it just means a poor product abusing the franchise name for making money thus pulling down the franchise.

[PANZERBUNNY]

PGI have no excuse to cut corners with this game.

Sooner or later they should be able to get all features they discussed prior to the founders programs.

There would be a mass feeling of betrayal if they let some suits deviate from the vision which got so many to sign on.

Stay true. If you build it, they will come.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

customization isnt canon? I could SWEAR my Btech Compendium had mech customization rules right in it. I mean I didnt learn how to do it all by myself...

[Alvor]

Vodrin Thales, on 15 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Wait... what? So a twin AC20 Jagermech with a similar top speed to a gausscat/SRMcat is that much less of a problem? You do realize it will have exactly the same armor values and carry about the same ammo as a twin AC20 K2 right?

No I do not think the Jager will be as agile as a cats. Cats can shoot backwards and Jagers most likely not. K2 atm is not as bad as an A1 and the AC Jager should go about 65kph with thinish armor and ammo may vary.

[Felicitatem Parco]

This topic was created specifically in the interests of promoting Game Balance, and so I am moving it to the Game Balance forums.

[Urdnot Mau]

Arctourus, on 15 March 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

boats, boats, boats, boats, what's wrong with them? As mentioned, they exist in the official game universe so there is no point in eliminating them here. A catapult with a bunch of lrms is no different than a hunchback with a bunch of mlas. If all you have a bunch of one type of weapon, it's a boat, end of discussion.

The idea is to know your role on the battlefield. LRMs aren't overpowered...players are underthinking when they get shot at with them. Run and hide, use cover, watch where you go and LRMS won't hurt you. Laugh in the face of lrm boats when you run up on them with some pesky light mech and tear them apart because they can't hurt you. Use cover and you avoid ppc boats too...and if you get close, they can't hit you well and overheat too easily. Got a splatcat coming for you? Stay out of range, takes care of that. Any sort of balanced build will easily dispatch one from medium distance.

the boats aren't the problem, your tactics are. I don't boat personally, but I'm glad someone on my team does. those are the tactical points that make this game even more exciting.

I'm sorry, sir. I don't think you understand the situation. If we could avoid such mechs not so many people would come here complain. Read this:
We can't always BE in cover because we can't find cover everywhere in a map. We can't always be hiding an entire game behind cover waiting for the enemy to come. We want to be able to run around without the fear to die in 2 seconds from an overarmed mech. Not every mech can run from a SRM cat running at 75 kph. Sometimes we are too busy getting jammed by ecm or concentrating fire somewhere else. It's not always that we have team mates beside us. We can't always see a sneak SRM cat coming at us. And please don't tell us that it's our fault, that we should always be watching. Even not watching i don't think that this game is about killing your enemy in 3 blows. The same thing goes to the LRM boats and PPC boats. Sometimes these mechs are sniping from the ridge and we can't peak because we fear losing our CT in ONE hit !

but this is not why i came here. I just wanted to say that this post was created to complain not about "BOATING", but from overpowered mechs. The 9 laser HBK is a laser boat and the same thing is valid to one of the awesome variants. There's a Jenner with 6 laser hardpoints. Logic says that that is boating. The problem is boating beyond REGULAR power. What if the HBK could fit 9 Large lasers and run at 70 kph ? That would be ridiculous ! Just like is a Stalker with 5xLRM15. They achieve such a high firepower that almost no other mech can get (specially inside their own variants). Only in certain situations they are vulnerable and this situations are rare, or they wouldn't be in the game. The problem in this game is losing all your mechs armor in a matter of few seconds. I BET this makes everyone go nuts.

[M4rtyr]

Sigh.. just to be more clear then my last post.

There is not a prolem with boating. What makes boats look bad is the supporting mechanics.

SRM boats issues. SRM's are doing more damage, first from a damage increase and second from splash damage. Two damage increases from canon making them better. Plus the easy lock streaks... Imagine if you will the -CANON- Timberwolf/Madcat loadout featuring 6 Streak SRM-6's. As the mechanics are now that loadout will be insanely dominate. To be fair it was amazing in TT, but it would be insanity in MWO atm.

Hence fix the poorly implimented mechanics and the boats aren't OP'ed. They are just showing their desgin inexperience. I mean was have fouled up ECM's thanks to trying to counter boating LRM's instead of just balancing LRM damage.

Edited by M4rtyr, 15 March 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[Ialti]

armyof1, on 14 March 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

And it certainly also has different kinds of weaponry from short to long range, that you can't just push the alpha button and all the damage will be focused on one point and hit at the same time, right?

Oh, so now we're going to start preventing people from placing a number of similarly-ranged weapons in their mechs then? But why stop there? I mean, I could still build a 'boat' with three medium lasers and three large lasers that could tear through a light's armor with o fuss. Why don't we start hacking off hard points, because as long as I have six I can boat similarly-ranged weapons for a highish alpha and tie them into one 'kill button.'

So let's get rid of the hard point system, and then maybe start just letting our mechs carry weapons that they can hold in their hands. And bandoleers of ammo, and maybe a few ultra-short-range weapons like bowie knives for when they get into really close quarters and don't have time to switch from their long-range carry to a shorter-range carry.

And maybe up the damage of these 'handheld' weapons. After all, carrying one around isn't quite enough to kill off other mechs with current damage values.

All that's left is third-person implementation, and if you get your way we can dress our mechs in cammo and call the game CoD.

[Kaziganthi]

3rdworld, on 15 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Pg 58 TRO 3050.

Boom Shakalaka

and boomshakala...this is not a factory produced model. Again it's a variant..not a stock mech produced from the factory. I said it twice because i think thats vitally important.

You claimed they are stock..but they are not. Once something has had a modification done, they are no longer stock standard.

[Kaziganthi]

M4rtyr, on 15 March 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Wasn't going to say anything in this thread until read this...

Uhh, LRM's are support weapons and those are support mechs. You take LRM boats only in TT and you are going to get crushed.

Saying LRMs are a support weapon because they are on a support mech is just foolish. By this classification your also saying medium lasers are a support weapon because they are also on a support mech. Also included are guass rifles on one of the cat variants, so they now become a support weapon..oh wait..just about every weapon is on one or more "support" mech so they are all support weapons, so does that mean all should be nerfed and we now just go into fist-i-cuffs.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 15 March 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

customization isnt canon? I could SWEAR my Btech Compendium had mech customization rules right in it. I mean I didnt learn how to do it all by myself...

It does..but build a mech from scratch using those rules and you'll find it a bit more costly than just pulling out a MG and replacing it with a Guass rifle.

[M4rtyr]

Kaziganthi, on 15 March 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Saying LRMs are a support weapon because they are on a support mech is just foolish. By this classification your also saying medium lasers are a support weapon because they are also on a support mech. Also included are guass rifles on one of the cat variants, so they now become a support weapon..oh wait..just about every weapon is on one or more "support" mech so they are all support weapons, so does that mean all should be nerfed and we now just go into fist-i-cuffs.

Uhh no, I call them support weapons because they are, I call those mechs support mehs because they boat a support weapon. ML's are a primary weapon for pretty much anything, they are a bread and butter weapon.

But LRM's are indeed a support weapon. They are great out of the front lines but when it comes to a toe to toe fight they are inferior to every other weapon and this is based on canon. they are there to soften up the enemy while closing. Again take a lance of LRM boats and a lance of most any other mechs and face off in TT. LRM boats will lose every time because they are inferior, they are meant to be. Their main advantages are IDF (huge advantage) and range, few weapons have their range and no other weapon can hit a target without the target being able to return fire. So they were balanced as not being a very deadly weapon compared to others, they do plenty of damage but are not the main weapon of the battlefield. If that were the case then all the lore would boil down to who had more LRM's in their force and they win.

LRM's are a support weapon.

[OneEyed Jack]

Aloha, on 15 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

The point is, people will always go for the build that can kill in the shortest time. Why expose yourself to the potential danger of being shot back at if you don't have to?

Always? If that were the case, everyone would be piloting the same mech.

Kaziganthi, on 15 March 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

and boomshakala...this is not a factory produced model. Again it's a variant..not a stock mech produced from the factory. I said it twice because i think thats vitally important.

You claimed they are stock..but they are not. Once something has had a modification done, they are no longer stock standard.

Incorrect. He claimed other variants were stock models. You incorrectly claimed they were modified, thus not stock. When it was pointed out that the listings usually specifically say when they are modified, you challenged him to show you one, and he did.

Your knowledge of the canon is sorely lacking to be engaging in this argument, as pretty much everything you said is flat wrong. Mechs aren't stamped out from a solid block of mech material. They are built from various parts. It's the high-tech parts that people didn't know how to create. Creating a new mech is just taking the low-tech parts, like the IS, and mounting the high-tech parts in them in a different way than they were before. Likewise, there are numerous factory variants, including most of those currently in this game, that have different weapons mounted in them than the original variant.

Yes, the end-user changing parts makes a car no longer stock, but ordering it from the dealer with the upgraded V-8 and leather seats does not.