463 replies to this topic

[M4rtyr]

Kaziganthi, on 16 March 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

The thing is, it is a multi-dimensional map, but the way current play style is, Death Match, with no other objective, every map isn't used to it's full potential. You just see it more on Alpine because it's larger. Why use the entire map for a 15 min match, for any slow mech it takes over half that time to go along the road. So easiest thing to do is go in a straight line between the bases and start brawling. But due to the openess of that area, people get hammered by the any long range weaponry on either side and blame the map, rather than thinking of other ways to win.

Its not multi demensional, its a wide open map with a few high hills. There is no place on that map that has a disadvantage to long range and advantage to short range. There is only the aspect of running in a wide flank which as I stated only works while we have 8v8 and not enough people looking around. Because even if you swing around there is still a wide open area to cross it's just often not watched.

It's a one dimensional map and assault plays out the same way every time. Conquest is marginal since it takes so long to run around capping people get spread out if they aren't smart.

[Nik Reaper]

Nathan Foxbane, on 14 March 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Funny thing about boats. They do not perform all that well when grouped with the same. They take advantage of specializing and if they are grouped with something that complements them they do well, doubly so if they operate in environments that play to their strengths. If they find themselves alone or outside of their niche operating range, they fall apart. Good example I played a game where the other team had a pair of Stalkers. One was exclusively LRM and the other was Streaks and mediums. Individually they were easy prey, but as a matched pair they were the last 'Mechs standing because they compensated for their partner's weaknesses.

Yes, splatcats have massive alphas and good turns of speed and maneuverability, but they only shine in one on one and ambush situations. Pin them down, draw their fire with something nimble, and hit them hard, they fall quickly. They also often have ammunition problems if the pilots are not patient with their shots and I have seen more than a few pilots take advantage of other players ignorance of that by bluffing their way out of bad situations. In one instance a opposing splatcat chased a teammate around for almost two minutes before my panicked ally realized he had not been shot at, the cat was dispatched quickly afterward. Many others have very exploitable weaknesses. They become difficult when players stop thinking as an individual and start playing to complement strengths of other builds. Splatcat pilots in particular have become very aware of what priority targets they are and have learned to let other dangerous builds lead the way and draw attention to make the most of their fast strike, but limited range builds.

To condense a very long post. Most boats are merely adequate individually. They are lethal when complemented and coordinated.

This is a most correct point, but the question being asked here as I see it is: do we want/need specialist mechs in competitive play?

My personal view in this is, everyone else is doing it , why not mwo? It has to be faced that in every game a team is composed of a varying number of "positions" or to say specialists, sometimes these specialists have some kind of fallback or can put up with a second roll but the better the team skill the more specialised the "units" and the more specific the gameplay that team runs. So boating is something that is natural.

The only thing I personally would change is that there are more penalty to overheat shutdown and penalties to running very hot ( about 80% max heat and up ) to aiming and movement so as to mitigate the danger of hot alpha builds ( 6ppc and 6srm).

Edited by Nik Reaper, 17 March 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

it doesnt need to address boating, boating is canon to the game.
The whole Catapult line IS a design of boats

Woo I dont think Ive gotten 46 likes on one post before

[Deathlike]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 March 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Woo I dont think Ive gotten 46 likes on one post before

Feel teh love... or teh lurv.

[CrushLibs]

We should move the 6 missile hard points from the arms to the L & R torso that way when you put in your XL engine you lose 3 slots per side.

I hate having two HUGE square ears to cut off and neuter the splatcat harmless let’s put the missiles in the torso.

**post dripping with sarcasm**

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

This game needs to address a lot of things, but so called "boats" are not amongst them.

[FeralBerserker]

I boated an SRM Cat-A1 when I started. Was cool, shoot a guy in the face with a shotgun basically, and then watch him die. Ultimately, not versatile enough for me. Now I hardly play the thing, and when I do I don't find it that fun. Yet I fight against pretty much the same build all the time, whether I'm in my Jenner, Centurion, Trebuchets or whatever, don't matter to me. Sure, it's unfortunate to head around that corner and all the sudden you're at the gates of Heaven or Hell... but I like that it adds enough brutality in such a short period of fighting that you need to better develop your piloting skills and fight or flight mechanism.

Likewise with LRM boats. I never played one, but I think they do have a place in the game. It encourages teamwork; i.e. running around the flanks and disabling their artillery, then attacking the rest of their team from behind with guerilla tactics thus pushing them into such great disarray they're more likely to kill each other with paranoid FF.

I pretty much have no problem with boats. The only problem I do have regarding boats is basically a problem with match-making. Getting thrown into a match against a team that has maybe 2 scouts and 6 LRM boats is a real drag. Though, that happens VERY rarely to me. Other than that though, it's usually not that tough to take out a boat or two... some speed, finesse piloting and a powerful short-range payload usually does the trick... or when dealing with SRM boats maybe take a few pot shots for your team in order to draw the enemy into the open and watch them get pummeled due to their lack of range.

I think if you have a serious problem with boating then you really just have a problem with yourself. You've tricked yourself into thinking that boats are invincible, when they truly are not.

[Kaziganthi]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Its not multi demensional, its a wide open map with a few high hills. There is no place on that map that has a disadvantage to long range and advantage to short range. There is only the aspect of running in a wide flank which as I stated only works while we have 8v8 and not enough people looking around. Because even if you swing around there is still a wide open area to cross it's just often not watched.

It's a one dimensional map and assault plays out the same way every time. Conquest is marginal since it takes so long to run around capping people get spread out if they aren't smart.

So in other words your saying..oh I cant brawl on 1 map out of how many, so the map needs to change.

[PaintedWolf]

Lukoi, on 14 March 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

People complain they can't approach the LRM boat because there's a splat cat defending it, or they can't maintain range on the splatcat because the LRM boat is covering it.....guess what, that's not OP Mechs...that's OP TEAMWORK you have to defeat.

But wait, using teamwork is cheating! The best way to survive is to spread out and fight the enemy one on one.

I want to fight the Splatcat at long-range and the LRM Boat at close range. Now THAT is honorable combat according to MY definitions!

Edited by PaintedWolf, 17 March 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[M4rtyr]

Kaziganthi, on 17 March 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

So in other words your saying..oh I cant brawl on 1 map out of how many, so the map needs to change.

OMG.. get a clue. The other maps are one dimensional brawler maps In a thread about alpine I said I want the Devs to stop making one dimensional maps and make interesting maps, so is your drop in a brawler you can take advantage of your strengths if you are smart, or if you drop as an LRM boat there are areas you can do the same with it. But thats not what we have.

Which is another reason why people complain about boats because depending on the map certain boats have their advantages.

[PaintedWolf]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

OMG.. get a clue. The other maps are one dimensional brawler maps In a thread about alpine I said I want the Devs to stop making one dimensional maps and make interesting maps, so is your drop in a brawler you can take advantage of your strengths if you are smart, or if you drop as an LRM boat there are areas you can do the same with it. But thats not what we have.

Even on Alpine I was able to effectively use a brawler by sticking with my team. And River City, the main "brawler map" has plenty of open terrain. And those are the two most one-dimensional maps.

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Which is another reason why people complain about boats because depending on the map certain boats have their advantages.

And by that same token disadvantages on the other one-dimensional maps. That energy-heavy Mech is going to be more effective on snow maps then Caustic for a reason. This actually discourages boating. If boating is still effective, maybe it is because specialization works better in a group vs. group setting when effective team work enters the equation. You don't have to admit that if you don't want to, but gimping the entire game because your one vs one strategy doesn't work is little more then throwing a tantrum.

[M4rtyr]

PaintedWolf, on 17 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Even on Alpine I was able to effectively use a brawler by sticking with my team. And River City, the main "brawler map" has plenty of open terrain. And those are the two most one-dimensional maps.



And by that same token disadvantages on the other one-dimensional maps. That energy-heavy Mech is going to be more effective on snow maps then Caustic for a reason. This actually discourages boating. If boating is still effective, maybe it is because specialization works better in a group vs. group setting when effective team work enters the equation. You don't have to admit that if you don't want to, but gimping the entire game because your one vs one strategy doesn't work is little more then throwing a tantrum.

My 4SP is fine on ALpine for conquest, but its the assaults that are lame because of the large areas between cover.

But you'll excuse me if I don't give what you say about your brawler much weight, nothing personal its just I've heard the same things from others that were BS. Such as someones brawler being a D-DC with 2 UAC5's. Hmmm, ECM and long range weapons, thats a perfect build for Alpine. Or staying with a team with ECM is great as well. But with most of my experience is been no ECM against ECM with LRMs. That is what shows the flaws with the map.

The combination of ECM and LRM's on Alpine is murderous. Now if you consider ECM getting fixed to not totally be a hard counter to LRM's then what will we see on that map, LRM insantity.

This is how we get back to boats though...

Change convergence.. this means direct fire weapon boats don't core mechs in 1-2 shots.
Reduce LRM damage, this makes them less deadly on maps like Alpine, but to balace that reduced damage increase their flight speed and fix ECM so its not stupidly good.
Reduce SRM damage, this makes splatacats more managable.
Make it so Streaks have a much more restricted lock requirement, this plus the damage change makes streak boats more reasonable and its how streaks should be based on what they are intended for.

[PaintedWolf]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

My 4SP is fine on ALpine for conquest, but its the assaults that are lame because of the large areas between cover.

It was assault.....

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

But you'll excuse me if I don't give what you say about your brawler much weight, nothing personal its just I've heard the same things from others

So you admit people are agreeing with me on this?

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

The combination of ECM and LRM's on Alpine is murderous. Now if you consider ECM getting fixed to not totally be a hard counter to LRM's then what will we see on that map, LRM insantity.

Any team that knows what it is doing and coordinates their actions is probably going to easily defeat another team that does not.

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Change convergence.. this means direct fire weapon boats don't core mechs in 1-2 shots.
Reduce LRM damage, this makes them less deadly on maps like Alpine, but to balace that reduced damage increase their flight speed and fix ECM so its not stupidly good.
Reduce SRM damage, this makes splatacats more managable.
Make it so Streaks have a much more restricted lock requirement, this plus the damage change makes streak boats more reasonable and its how streaks should be based on what they are intended for.

I don't know, I play the game in Trials and it still seems pretty balanced to me, and I'm usually pretty picky and honest in my criticisms. And if anything SRMs seem under-powered, particularly against Light Mechs which is not canon at all. In TT SRMs have just as much chance to hit light Mechs as lasers and ACs, but in MWO SRMs need to achieve lock which usually does not happen for a while vs a speedy light Mech, and even when it does misses due to flight speed.

[M4rtyr]

@paintedwolf

Uhh not sure what to say after reasoning that last paragraph...

SRM's are harder to hit lights with, but then you can hit a light with a laser but you won't get its full damage most times unless you are really good. I can hit lights with my SRM's pretty well. But you can't say they should do more damage because of accuracy because they do more damage to an Atlas which you just can't miss, even at max range most of my missles will hit an atlas at range. Streaks are the ones that lock and they don't take longer to lock against lights, in fact streaks are the easiest weapon to kill a llght with.

So based on what you just said about that I question your knowledge of the game to be perfectly honest and so your statements about the maps have even less credibility to me.

[Victor Morson]

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

Learn to play defensively, sell your armor and avoid getting hit at all the time. There's already a good system to prevent serious boating (Hardpoints) in the game, and because some 'mechs specialize in boating a specific weapon, well, tough cookies. That's the whole point of said 'mechs.

If you're dying too rapidly you basically need to practice, again, making them hit non-vital areas on your 'mech so you stay alive longer. Maybe tear that XL out of your 'mech too?

And finally, being mad a 'mech is being used "out of role" in a customizable game is silly. Weapons are Energy, Missile, Ballistic not Short, Medium and Long, so I have a hard time buying, say, a ML Awesome or a 2x AC20 Cat as "out of role." They're totally filling their roles, as an energy boat and ballistics carrier respectively. Just because this doesn't fit in with the specific 'mechs on table top doesn't mean this is a valid complaint.

EDIT: Also, seriously, do not even talk about nerfing LRMs more. They're already falling into the "Extreme niche" category. Because Long Range Missiles are exceptional on a long range map shouldn't offend people, Jesus, in particular since the 1000m range is a serious drawback on Alpine.

ER Large, Gauss, ER PPC and even light AC dominate that map so completely at times, LRMs are just one more flavor. I can't get invested in a river of tears over a weapon that is great in such a small percentage of circumstances, with so many drawbacks.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 March 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[M4rtyr]

Victor Morson, on 17 March 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

EDIT: Also, seriously, do not even talk about nerfing LRMs more. They're already falling into the "Extreme niche" category. Because Long Range Missiles are exceptional on a long range map shouldn't offend people, Jesus, in particular since the 1000m range is a serious drawback on Alpine.

ER Large, Gauss, ER PPC and even light AC dominate that map so completely at times, LRMs are just one more flavor.

LOL, nerf LRM's -more-? They've never been nerfed just buffed.

ECM is the only problem LRM's face on Alpine. Fix ECM so its not stupid and then you don't even have to see your target to hit them, just use the snipers as your spotter while you chill behind the hills. Then -INCREASE- LRM flight speed so it doesn't take half an hour flight time and so you can hit lights with them and then you can lower the damage back to 1 where it started.

Thats 2 positive and one negative change and all around much better for TOTAL balance, not just whats good for LRMs.

Edited by M4rtyr, 17 March 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Victor Morson]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

LOL, nerf LRM's -more-? They've never been nerfed just buffed.

I hate cliched image macros, but this is really called for on this one.

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

ECM is the only problem LRM's face on Alpine.

Except, you know, having a maximum range of 1,000m. When ER PPCs, ER Large, Gauss, AC2 and I believe even AC/5 can outstrip that massively. If anything I've been on Alpine with LRMs and more than once wish I had traded up to ER Large Lasers because I've gotten utterly dominated at 1,200m, a full 200m out of range.

[M4rtyr]

Victor Morson, on 17 March 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Blah

You're not to bright are you...

Without ECM then you have whats called indirect fire. Meaning those longer ranged ER's and all won't even see you and you can still shoot at them. Just a minor adventage, being able to kill someone without them ever seeing you. So don't come claiming LRM's can't beat a sniper. A good LRM boat can do 1000 damage and very possibly not even take a single point of damage themselves.

This is exactly why ECM was made so stupid to counter LRM boats but they went WAY too far. they should have just dropped the LRM damage.

[Victor Morson]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

You're not to bright are you...

I'll let history and the people reading this decide who isn't too bright.

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Without ECM then you have whats called indirect fire. Meaning those longer ranged ER's and all won't even see you and you can still shoot at them. Just a minor adventage, being able to kill someone without them ever seeing you.

Sure, LRMs can indirect fire. They're also terrible at it. If we discount ECM entirely, you need to realize without direct LOS, you can't use Artemis OR TAG. This means the missiles not only track pretty horribly, but the damage gets spread all over the 'mech. It's not even worth indirect firing a mobile light/medium, and you could make a good argument for avoiding doing so even against assaults.

Plus, with the indirect fire arc as it is (One of a long list of nerfs for your "No nerf" claim), you've got about a 50% chance of just blowing your shots entirely and that's being generous, as you can't tell what's in the path blocking your missiles on the other side of a hill - if they clear the hill at all.

Indirect fire is, in short, somewhat useful and sometimes allows you to get some free damage in, with the right situation, or keep your head down if you've gotten critted. I'm not saying it's useless but it is NOT the same thing as direct LOS fire, at least not since Artemis showed up and TAG got good.

Now, once upon a time, indirect fire was both amazing and horribly overpowered. It used to go straight up, come straight down and land almost all of that firepower into the enemies cockpit. I'm not defending LRMs because I like LRMs (I do), but rather, if anything they are a little underpowered right now. They most definitely have been massively overpowered at various points through the game's life.

I'm sure many people here remember when LRMs were both obscenely overpowered but also completely stoppable with a few AMS systems? That might have been worse than the ECM counter by a huge margin.

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

So don't come claiming LRM's can't beat a sniper. A good LRM boat can do 1000 damage and very possibly not even take a single point of damage themselves.

No they can't. They really can't, not unless they are facing woefully incompetent PUGs. Just because someone is behind cover doesn't mean you need to move within 1000m of them. In your example, the LRM boat would require a 'mech to spot for them. If you use your sniper to target the spotter - which is likely FAR closer to you than the LRM boat - you can probably kill it and totally shut down the LRM boat you are so afraid of down entirely, or force them to step out of cover. Tada, you have the range advantage and they are entirely helpless until they get within 1000m.

This isn't some magical falicy or on paper theory, this is just what good units do.

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

This is exactly why ECM was made so stupid to counter LRM boats but they went WAY too far. they should have just dropped the LRM damage.

ECM did go way too far, and LRMs are tricky to balance, but dropping damage was positively not the answer. I get the feeling you haven't seen even a quarter of the changes LRMs have gone through the last year, given some of the horribly inaccurate stuff you are saying.

EDIT: Also for as bad as the LRM Stalker is I honestly rather see one of those than a 6 Large Laser stalker any day. At least the LRM one has drawbacks and can't even defend itself at close range.

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 March 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[M4rtyr]

Ok yeah a 6 LL stalker would be bad, but read the reast of the thread. I've also been saying convergence needs to change so you can't get cored so easily by direct fire weapons.

As for the IDF point. Please, Even when I first started using trial mechs I knew how make sure my LRM's didn't hit the hills. Aso for no Artemis or TAG, Well duh, LRM's are supposed to spread their damage out and IDF is supposed to be less effective then firing them with LOS. But being less effective is not useless at all.

The tracking is bad mostly because of the slow speed. Again, increase the flight speed so they hit what they are supposed to hit and targets don't have all day to find cover before they hit. That alone is honestly a VERY positive buff, combine it with fixing ECM and -not- changing the damage and they are going to be doing too much damage.

The thing of it is most of your reasons are case by case. Lights and mediums are hard to hit, but anything slower will get pummeled, again thats due to flight speed. Once more missiles start hitting they start doing too much damage. With flight speed and ECM changes thats ALOT more missles hitting and lights will be wiped out in 1-2 volleys with the current damage. Hell I was stupid once and let a Stalker get a volley on my hunchback and it took me from lightly damaged to my RT gone and CT stripped of armor. They do too much damage when they work its just there are too many things preventing them from working, when those change then LRM's will be the most danagerous weapon in the game.

Edit: As for the massive damage and not getting hit at all. Yeah its not likely against a good team, but it is POSSIBLE. What other weapon in this game can you do 1000 damage without even seeing a target though? None. That is why in TT the LRM's have low damage, its to balance them with these other advantages.

Edited by M4rtyr, 17 March 2013 - 03:09 PM.