463 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Edit: As for the massive damage and not getting hit at all. Yeah its not likely against a good team, but it is POSSIBLE. What other weapon in this game can you do 1000 damage without even seeing a target though? None. That is why in TT the LRM's have low damage, its to balance them with these other advantages.

The chances of getting 1,000 damage purely through indirect fire on a regular basis are so insanely low it basically invalidates your entire argument. Indirect fire is kind of terrible, the way it is right now. If it wasn't for how well LRMs perform at medium range I'd likely abandon them entirely.

[M4rtyr]

Victor Morson, on 17 March 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

The chances of getting 1,000 damage purely through indirect fire on a regular basis are so insanely low it basically invalidates your entire argument. Indirect fire is kind of terrible, the way it is right now. If it wasn't for how well LRMs perform at medium range I'd likely abandon them entirely.

Would you read everything I say or you just have problems with remembering it.

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Edit: As for the massive damage and not getting hit at all. Yeah its not likely against a good team, but it is POSSIBLE. What other weapon in this game can you do 1000 damage without even seeing a target though? None.

Not common not regularly POSSIBLE. But its not possible with any other weapon because no other weapon can do any damage with IDF.

[keith]

i can think of only 1 decent way to deal with boating.(<-boater here)1 random RNG for any game is bad. so make weps spread is bad. add a percent based recharge perboated wep. we aleady have a stat to reduce wep firing time. it gives a slight edge vs someone who does not have it in a straight up sluging match. add a 2%recharge rate per 3 extra wep.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ok yeah a 6 LL stalker would be bad, but read the reast of the thread. I've also been saying convergence needs to change so you can't get cored so easily by direct fire weapons.

Easier said than done. Most of the solutions ive seen to convergence either introduce RNG or introduce weapons not hitting where your crosshair is centered. Both of which are unacceptable.

I would rather just see center torso armor increased so that shooting someone's center torso isn't so easy.

[StalaggtIKE]

Currently boats simply dominate the game. I think changes should be done to ensure diverse builds are more advantageous. It's ridiculous that I can fire 4xPPC in someone's back for a 1hit kill, with the ability to alpha 2 more times. Or fire off a giant 60 count volley of LRM. Of course 4xPPC produce a lot of heat and LRM boats require a lot of ammo and both are functionless up close. Despite these disadvantages, it sure feels that the advantages greatly outweighs them.

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

I would rather just see center torso armor increased so that shooting someone's center torso isn't so easy.

Probably equally as bad of a fix. Majority of the times, if you're going for CT, you're doing it wrong anyway.

[shotokan5]

In war things are not always equal. While I agree that Streeks are a little out of hand, turning up anti-missle a little will make a big difference.

[Syllogy]

The April 2nd Patch will remove Splash Damage for an overhaul.

This will cause the amount of damage that all missiles do to drop between 20%-40%.

No need for a nerf at this point.

In any case, nobody here has access to the Telemetry Data to quote real figures other than that of their own personal opinions. Just pointing it out, but don't demand changes when you don't have all of the facts. If you want to suggest a change, do it in the Game Balance section with a Poll.

[Victor Morson]

Syllogy, on 18 March 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

The April 2nd Patch will remove Splash Damage for an overhaul.

This will cause the amount of damage that all missiles do to drop between 20%-40%.

Well if that's not fixed pretty quickly all that will do is take missiles from the "Barely worth using" pile to the "Entirely not worth using pile." They need to make sure they're not balancing this game around PUGs who don't understand the drawbacks of LRMs.

I really hope PGI understands this kind of whining never stops. Ever. The minute they nerf missiles to uselessness, people will complain that [INSERT WEAPON HERE] needs to join the pile. When every weapon is worthless, people can begin complaining which one is the least worthless.

EDIT: Long story short, missiles are a niche that are barely justified as they stand right now, so if you think they are overpowered, you quite frankly need to leave this thread and go learn to deal with them instead of complaining.

Edited by Victor Morson, 18 March 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[UberFubarius]

Victor Morson, on 18 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

EDIT: Long story short, missiles are a niche that are barely justified as they stand right now, so if you think they are overpowered, you quite frankly need to leave this thread and go learn to deal with them instead of complaining.

I have to agree with that statement. I haven't used LRM much before (enjoying my twin PPC, twin med pulse laser Cat right now). But in my experience, once you know the limitation of LRM you can pretty much avoid them. Once I understand them, the number of times where they're definitely a contributing factor to my death are, quite frankly reasonable situations for LRM to kill me.
1. I was out in the open, due to momentary lack of situational awareness.
2. I got forced into the open, due to enemy mechs.
Beyond that, I find countering LRM fairly easy if you know what to do (find a hill/building. Pop out to shoot, if you hear missile warning, GET BEHIND THAT COVER).

[Imagine Dragons]

There needs to be a clearer distinction between specialist and boating.h

My Dragon 1N is a specialist in CQC but I'm not boating MPLs...

I have 2 mlas 2 srm 4s and 1 AC10. All my weapons can hit in CQC but they're not all the same weapons.

An idea to "fix" boating of one weapon is to simply put an exponential increase in heat generated from the same weapons on a boat. You can boat, but it would be painful to be shutting down for 10 seconds after every volley starting at 0 heat... note this would start to come into affect when you have 3 or more mounted. Other weapons do not get penalized.

Crazy?

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 18 March 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Easier said than done. Most of the solutions ive seen to convergence either introduce RNG or introduce weapons not hitting where your crosshair is centered. Both of which are unacceptable.

I would rather just see center torso armor increased so that shooting someone's center torso isn't so easy.

real weapons don't always hit the center cross hairs. i agree that a RNG would be unacceptable , but why would you oppose a small cone of fire for linked fire boating pop tarting snipers.

The problem with increasing CT armor is it will produce a bunch of end game zombies. the people with weapons in the CT will have a competitive advantage. at that point all you'll see on the field is mech with ct weapons.

I really want to understand why people find a small cone of fire so objectionable. its in all the games i currently play like Planet side 2 and it works fine. the way its implemented in WOT i can relate too expecaly for single fire weapons.

i think the original version of convergence for MWO had lasers criss crossing in from of your target missing completly, because you fired to soon and your focal point is way too close to yourself. conversely if the focal point is too far away your arm weapons can miss the slender light mech . basically the convergence idea looked stupid or didn't feel right and we live with the broken version(pin point accuracy) because the games too large to stop and fix one minor element.

[Karandor]

I always thought boating was a part of MW.

Some builds are a bit OP but as I get better at the game I'm finding far fewer things actually bother me.


The biggest problem people have in MWO (including myself) is patience. That is why people die to boats (especially LRMS). I run, right now, an HBK-4g with 3ML and 2 AC5, a CTF-4X with 2 gauss and 2 mls and a CTF-1X with 3 PPCs. I guess you could call the 1X a boat but it relies much more on great DPS (the 4 PPC+ boats will overheat LOOONG before I do) than pure alpha. I have killed a ton of boats now by being patient and waiting for the right time to engage.


Other than the splat-cat (and it seems to be a function of splash damage being broken) I don't think anything is too OP right now. The crazy PPC and laser boats already have tons of heat issues. LRM boats can be fought by using terrain.

[PaintedWolf]

Remember with Great Power comes Great Responsibility and people need to design their Mechs Responsibly, and if you don't the developers should step in and design your Mechs for you for the Greater Good and you will Thank Them in the Long-Term!

The fact is Boating is Irresponsible! Just because you think you are having fun doesn't not mean you are having fun, WE will decide when you are having fun.

[focuspark]

PaintedWolf, on 18 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Remember with Great Power comes Great Responsibility and people need to design their Mechs Responsibly, and if you don't the developers should step in and design your Mechs for you for the Greater Good and you will Thank Them in the Long-Term!

The fact is Boating is Irresponsible! Just because you think you are having fun doesn't not mean you are having fun, WE will decide when you are having fun.

Yeah - no. Boating is part of the game. It's a logical extension and optimization of having a MechLab. I'd argue the MechLab being the single greatest draw for a lot people is an integral part of the game and therefore you will always have to live with people optimizing their builds. I suggest you do the same.

[Imagine Dragons]

focuspark, on 18 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Yeah - no. Boating is part of the game. It's a logical extension and optimization of having a MechLab. I'd argue the MechLab being the single greatest draw for a lot people is an integral part of the game and therefore you will always have to live with people optimizing their builds. I suggest you do the same.

Game will devolve into a meta of set chess pieces.

Seriously, we will have 12 mech load-outs at the most spanning all the weight classes, not to mention sharing the same weapons between most of them.

[M4rtyr]

XenomorphZZ, on 18 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Game will devolve into a meta of set chess pieces.

Seriously, we will have 12 mech load-outs at the most spanning all the weight classes, not to mention sharing the same weapons between most of them.

12? We already have this situation but its alot -less- then 12. Or havn't you read the 'competitively viable chasis/varient' thread?

[PaintedWolf]

M4rtyr, on 18 March 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

12? We already have this situation but its alot -less- then 12. Or havn't you read the 'competitively viable chasis/varient' thread?

It's the End of the World- Again! Y2K, the Mayans tried to warn us!

Quote

“This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper.” ― T.S. Eliot
"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world the master calls a butterfly" - Richard Bach
The first status on Facebook in 2013: 'Is anyone alive?'
When I have children I am going to make them watch the movie 2012 and tell them I survived that like a Boss!
If the world ends in 2012, I've wasted my whole life in school.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 18 March 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Zyllos]

I think this thread explains a lot of issues with the current weapon mechanics: Why is the Dragon Terrible?

One of the top complaints of the Dragon is that weapons are spread across sections. But what does that have to do with weapon convergence?

Well, take the DGN-1N. It has a laser in the LA and a ballistic in the RA. Then a laser in the LT and a missile in the CT. The two laser points can not be fired at the same time, easily, to land in the same spot. It can only do this if it is moving slowly or targeting a slow target so that the torso and arm convergence can match.

The ballistic also complicates the laser LA because you can't fire both arm weapons and hit the same location due to one being a ray trace while the other has a trajectory.

So, placing two-and-two together, you can see that the Dragon mech is considered inferior because it can not place all of it's weapon damage onto a single point at the same time. That mech has to single fire most of it's weapons to get them to land, which is balanced. But other mechs do not need to do this.

This is why weapon convergence is out of balance. Mechs with weapon hardpoints that can easily be focused onto a single point at the same time are considered good mechs while mechs that can not do this are considered bad. And this will always be until weapon convergence is changed.

Edited by Zyllos, 18 March 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

focuspark, on 18 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Yeah - no. Boating is part of the game. It's a logical extension and optimization of having a MechLab. I'd argue the MechLab being the single greatest draw for a lot people is an integral part of the game and therefore you will always have to live with people optimizing their builds. I suggest you do the same.

YEAH no, the mech lab was never ment to be used to upset the game balance but allow modification of chasis's to add flavor to the mechs while making them personal. Otherwise there wouldnt have been hard points. Sadly PGI rolled an epic fail with hard points and convergance. Now if you want we can use the TT idea of random hit locations and then boating wouldnt be an issue! or you can go back to play CoD or what every the hell it is you played before any type of battletech game.

Edited by Zerstorer Stallin, 18 March 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[M4rtyr]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 18 March 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

YEAH no, the mech lab was never ment to be used to upset the game balance but allow modification of chasis's to add flavor to the mechs while making them personal. Otherwise there wouldnt have been hard points. Sadly PGI rolled an epic fail with hard points and convergance. Now if you want we can use the TT idea of random hit locations and then boating wouldnt be an issue! or you can go back to play CoD or what every the hell it is you played before any type of battletech game.

Uhh, the mechlab doesn't break the balance. Weapons and equipment not being balanced breaks the balance. And the thing is the minmaxers, as always, take the most powerful weapons and equipment on the chasis' that can have them.

The chasis and concept of boating is not what is broken.