463 replies to this topic

[Kaziganthi]

M4rtyr, on 15 March 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Uhh no, I call them support weapons because they are, I call those mechs support mehs because they boat a support weapon. ML's are a primary weapon for pretty much anything, they are a bread and butter weapon.

But LRM's are indeed a support weapon. They are great out of the front lines but when it comes to a toe to toe fight they are inferior to every other weapon and this is based on canon. they are there to soften up the enemy while closing. Again take a lance of LRM boats and a lance of most any other mechs and face off in TT. LRM boats will lose every time because they are inferior, they are meant to be. Their main advantages are IDF (huge advantage) and range, few weapons have their range and no other weapon can hit a target without the target being able to return fire. So they were balanced as not being a very deadly weapon compared to others, they do plenty of damage but are not the main weapon of the battlefield. If that were the case then all the lore would boil down to who had more LRM's in their force and they win.

LRM's are a support weapon.

Umm no..So are they support weapons on a Vulture or a Madcat when they have zero minimum range. or just about any configuration of clan mech that carries them.

A support weapon is Artillery. Just because LRMs can fire indirectly, dosen't class them as a support weapon. It's one of their features. Just like the feature of a Guass is to have very little heat build up, or pulses are supposed to do more damage than standard lasers, or how streaks will always hit when locked compared to their non-streak counterparts.

keep deluding yourself that they are support weapons... you'll probably convince the devs to the point they are no longer useful in the game, until clans come out, then it will be OMG why are the Vulture and Madcat such sucky mechs.

[Kaziganthi]

OneEyed Jack, on 15 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Your knowledge of the canon is sorely lacking to be engaging in this argument, as pretty much everything you said is flat wrong. Mechs aren't stamped out from a solid block of mech material. They are built from various parts. It's the high-tech parts that people didn't know how to create. Creating a new mech is just taking the low-tech parts, like the IS, and mounting the high-tech parts in them in a different way than they were before. Likewise, there are numerous factory variants, including most of those currently in this game, that have different weapons mounted in them than the original variant.

Actually it is not, from the year 3025..mech production was slowly in decline due to the factories slowly falling apart. It was the finding of the memory core by the grey death leagion that stated things moving again. There were very few new mech created up until that little trinket was discovered and diseminated throughtout the stars. remember Comstar tried to stop any new advances in technology as they believed it was theirs to control. Also any planet that had mech production facilities on them were very heavily guarded and used to take entire regimental combat teams to take them.

Your point about it's the high tech parts that people didn't know how to create, is correct. Which was most of the machinery that was used to create the mechs. Piecing a few low tech parts together doesn;t give you a high tech component with the wave of a magic wand. For a tech to even design changes to a mech he had to be damned good, doubly so in the field. Most jury-rigged swap-out did not last more than a few firings.

Why do you think the hunchback is even called a swayback when the AC 20 is removed, its because of the counter balance in the mech making it lean to the other side due to the lack of weight from its main weapon. You'd think if something like that was done in a factory, they'd fix the counter balance. And if all the variants that were produced in the factory were actually better than their original, why would you even keep producing the original, as its upgrade is better? You not going to keep driving that Toyota corrolla that was designed in 1975 for close to the same price as the 2013 model are you?

Edited by Kaziganthi, 15 March 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[Phades]

It is not an issue of convergence or which type of weapon or how many they have. It isn't even how much damage each weapon deals individually. Although it is more in the way how some weapons function based on player input. Even going beyond that, it is compounded by how the game engine its self works and is manifested by the bugs/missing implementation we see currently within the game. Worse is how the core TT mechanics will compound even more basic conceptual issues further if left unchecked.

Some issues will be dealt with over time, while others will persist due to other underlying mechanics within the game. However, each have to be addressed individually on a case by case basis. One method to help smooth out the total amount of weapons on the machine would be to remove a lot of the freebees we get standard on the machines and actually force the players to mount support equipment. Another method involves adjusting how splash damage works along with telemetry and control methods involved. Following up on the support equipment theme would be to fully implement other missing equipment and features, while concurrently moving away from the arena style maps in both size and objectives involved. Although this will also require the re-implementation of previously removed mechanics and fully implementing them giving us other options such as full melee allowing other support equipment to be more attractive. Also along the lines of implementing missing mechanics would involve speed reductions with heat (canon), continuous heat accrual via jump jets, re-working of flamers and placing a reason and purpose for inferno/incendiary weapons along with better dynamic smoke effects (they are in the game already).

Arguably all of these things need to occur before a re-evaluation of weapon damage takes place, instituting clan machines, and before taking considerations towards issues related to precision of weapons and how to better translate inconsistent precision in a cause and effect manner which lead many to believe RNG and cone based mechanics were the "solution" to a very complex problem with these kinds of designs. PGI has already demonstrated the ability to modify and add values to different armor states and positions (missile doors/cockpits). It doesn't take much of a leap from there to begin adjusting how the overall armor sections work in a more piecemeal fashion forcing greater precision even within the more broad armor section points while concurrently making the actual weapon modeling more distinct and the destruction effects better reflecting upon the actual state of the target.
Many of the above concerns have been mentioned before at great detail, Some threads http://mwomercs.com/...g/page__st__100 have discussed aspects of this to death already and I find it a little sad that it is still being discussed in much of the same manner as before, instead of evolving to adapt to new issues being brought forth within the actual game at present.

[NocturnalBeast]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

People having a discussion about the mechanics of the game, and what will to lead to it lasting a long time and profitable is not always complaining.

I'm interested in the health of the game.

Is it healthy for the game long-term to have splatcats and ppc stalkers and 3x LRM 15's atlases with ECM?

Nope not in my opinion.

Nerfing things for bad players who are not willing to learn new strategies, try different builds, take the time to get better, or all of the above is not good for the game. If this game turns into an easy run and gun shooter, where a player can get hit 1000s of times before dying, then the actual regular paying fans of this game will leave, not the whiners who try it for a few weeks and cry that it is too hard. And eight medium laser Hunchies overheat like crazy, so kill them while they are shut down, or engage them at range.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

News flash, players already are leaving. Not to worry the ones that stay love boating! As a bonus they have the attention span of a 4th grader and when the next flashy thing comes along they'll leave as well. I know as of now I'm not spending any more money on MWO till consumables are done, and something changes about boating, ECM and streak combo's.

[0X2A]

Boating isn't that bad in pug play from the matches I've played.

Worst boat I ran into this week was one 6 PPC Stalker whose engine I surgically removed at 600m after he overheated. Boats have their downsides kids. (4 LLas to the same spot twice)

The A1 is excused at this moment, as 6 SRM6s is the only viable build with the OP ECM around.

[Rift Hawk]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 15 March 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

News flash, players already are leaving. Not to worry the ones that stay love boating! As a bonus they have the attention span of a 4th grader and when the next flashy thing comes along they'll leave as well. I know as of now I'm not spending any more money on MWO till consumables are done, and something changes about boating, ECM and streak combo's.

This ^

I barely play anymore because I'm sick of seeing the same mechs with the same boating builds match after match. I can't even tell you the last time I saw an Atlas K or a Catapult C-1. Almost every match its DD-Cs and A-1s. Raven 3Ls and 6PPC Stalkers. Why ? Because these are the end all mechs. The only ones worth playing once you master the line. Sorry, that doesn't make me want to spend my money on this game. Maybe in a few months if things are better and every mech in a line has an equal chance of being good, then perhaps I'll play more and spend some money. Until then, I'll be sticking to my 3 battles on sunday morning.

[M4rtyr]

Everyone always just focuses on the symptoms never the cause.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think it's a mistake to believe support weapons are "weak".

I think the point of support mechs is more that they act from a distance and are not suitable to fight in the middle of the brawl. They must stay at range, beause their weapon choice and their armor would work badly at close distances.

There are also no "primary" or "secondary" weapons per se. There are only mechs that use one weapon as primary weapon (like a Catapult may have LRMs as primary weapon) and others as secondary (like the same Catapult uses secondary). The weapon that is responsible for most of the damage output is usually the primary weapon. Balance-wise, a weapon that requires more weight investment to serve as a secondary weapon as a similar (or higher ranged) weapon as a primary weapon is underpowered. (Example MG - 4 MGs cost you at least 3 tons for 1.2 DPS at 90m, a single Medium Laser gives you 1.25 DPS at 270m with 1 ton.)

[M4rtyr]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 March 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

I think it's a mistake to believe support weapons are "weak".

I think the point of support mechs is more that they act from a distance and are not suitable to fight in the middle of the brawl. They must stay at range, beause their weapon choice and their armor would work badly at close distances.

There are also no "primary" or "secondary" weapons per se. There are only mechs that use one weapon as primary weapon (like a Catapult may have LRMs as primary weapon) and others as secondary (like the same Catapult uses secondary). The weapon that is responsible for most of the damage output is usually the primary weapon. Balance-wise, a weapon that requires more weight investment to serve as a secondary weapon as a similar (or higher ranged) weapon as a primary weapon is underpowered. (Example MG - 4 MGs cost you at least 3 tons for 1.2 DPS at 90m, a single Medium Laser gives you 1.25 DPS at 270m with 1 ton.)

I'll say it again.

Take a lance of LRM boats vs a lance of other mechs in TT. The LRM's will lose every time because they weren't designed to be as destructive their advantage is to give them thats range and standoff with IDF but not the killing power of GR's PPC's etc. If they were meant to be that destructive with the range advantage then the lore would have them dominating the battlefields but it was a conscious choice to make them weaker to make the game and lore more interesting. But MWO is stepping away from that and on an open map they can easily dominate the field (minus ECM lol).

This is why I consider them support weapons. They dish out some good damage but the other main line mechs finish the job.

Edited by M4rtyr, 16 March 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[Arctourus]

Urdnot Mau, on 15 March 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

I'm sorry, sir. I don't think you understand the situation. If we could avoid such mechs not so many people would come here complain. Read this:
We can't always BE in cover because we can't find cover everywhere in a map. We can't always be hiding an entire game behind cover waiting for the enemy to come. We want to be able to run around without the fear to die in 2 seconds from an overarmed mech. Not every mech can run from a SRM cat running at 75 kph. Sometimes we are too busy getting jammed by ecm or concentrating fire somewhere else. It's not always that we have team mates beside us. We can't always see a sneak SRM cat coming at us. And please don't tell us that it's our fault, that we should always be watching. Even not watching i don't think that this game is about killing your enemy in 3 blows. The same thing goes to the LRM boats and PPC boats. Sometimes these mechs are sniping from the ridge and we can't peak because we fear losing our CT in ONE hit !

but this is not why i came here. I just wanted to say that this post was created to complain not about "BOATING", but from overpowered mechs. The 9 laser HBK is a laser boat and the same thing is valid to one of the awesome variants. There's a Jenner with 6 laser hardpoints. Logic says that that is boating. The problem is boating beyond REGULAR power. What if the HBK could fit 9 Large lasers and run at 70 kph ? That would be ridiculous ! Just like is a Stalker with 5xLRM15. They achieve such a high firepower that almost no other mech can get (specially inside their own variants). Only in certain situations they are vulnerable and this situations are rare, or they wouldn't be in the game. The problem in this game is losing all your mechs armor in a matter of few seconds. I BET this makes everyone go nuts.

Above all, this is a war/battle simulation...you leave cover, you die. Grampa didn't survive WWII in germany by running around in circles in the middle of a big clearing while people shot at him. When there is a necessary reason to break cover, you do so - knowing that you may die for it. There is a reason that lrm boats pop out from behind a hill and shoot. They use cover. Whenever I play, whether in a scout or in a brawler, I do too. If a boat opens up, I duck back behind the hill and watch the missiles explode against rock. If I run out too far and can't get back, I receive lots of damage or die.

You can't expect a military force NOT to make a weapon as powerful as possible just because their enemies don't like the way it hurts them.

[M4rtyr]

Arctourus, on 16 March 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Above all, this is a war/battle simulation...you leave cover, you die. Grampa didn't survive WWII in germany by running around in circles in the middle of a big clearing while people shot at him. When there is a necessary reason to break cover, you do so - knowing that you may die for it. There is a reason that lrm boats pop out from behind a hill and shoot. They use cover. Whenever I play, whether in a scout or in a brawler, I do too. If a boat opens up, I duck back behind the hill and watch the missiles explode against rock. If I run out too far and can't get back, I receive lots of damage or die.

You can't expect a military force NOT to make a weapon as powerful as possible just because their enemies don't like the way it hurts them.

Please, your real world examples are terrible.

Cover you say, well look at alpine. Some of the hills offer cover from LRM's, problem is you have to cross huge open areas to move from cover to cover. So for my hunchie to get into range of anything I'm already dead because there are NO areas of approach on that map. Just because all the other maps have good cover doesn't mean LRM's are balanced, because they aren't and that is why people complain about LRM boats, not me the boats are fine, the LRM's they carry are flawed.

[Kaziganthi]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Please, your real world examples are terrible.

Cover you say, well look at alpine. Some of the hills offer cover from LRM's, problem is you have to cross huge open areas to move from cover to cover. So for my hunchie to get into range of anything I'm already dead because there are NO areas of approach on that map. Just because all the other maps have good cover doesn't mean LRM's are balanced, because they aren't and that is why people complain about LRM boats, not me the boats are fine, the LRM's they carry are flawed.

no cover..what about the road that goes around the back of the mountain...Am I the only one who knows about it, as I was able to lead 3 lights around the back of our opposing team, to ambush from the rear the moment they engaged our heavy and assault mechs. It was called timing, they just stayed back until we were in position to strike.

Just because there is a big open space thats the shortest distance to your enemies base, doesn't mean you should always run across it.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 16 March 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[HarmAssassin]

Quote

[color=#959595]Again take a lance of LRM boats and a lance of most any other mechs and face off in TT. LRM boats will lose every time because they are inferior, they are meant to be.[/color]

Don't know what TT group you played in, but every group I played in for 10 years had a different result. Get a lance of LRM boats high on hills to fire over terrain or behind cover and using a spotter = death of whatever they were facing.

Nothing wrong with boating, as you give something up to be able to do it.
Boat SRMs = useless at medium and long ranges
Boat LRMs = useless at short ranges
Boat AC20's or Gauss Rifles = low ammo count, and slow relatively unarmed mechs (because they had to put a smaller engine and strip off armor to free up enough weight) that are easily destroyed
Boat AC2 = useless unless fighting an ***** who stands perfectly still at long range allowing you to eventually do enough damage to one spot.

Nothing wrong with boats, learn to deal with them.

[M4rtyr]

Kaziganthi, on 16 March 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

no cover..what about the road that goes around the back of the mountain...Am I the only one who knows about it, as I was able to lead 3 lights around the back of our opposing team, to ambush from the rear the moment they engaged our heavy and assault mechs. It was called timing, they just stayed back until we were in position to strike.

Just because there is a big open space thats the shortest distance to your enemies base, doesn't mean you should always run across it.

Well first which base are you talking about...

But getting to any point on that map always includes cross large open areas, the only thing of it is 8v8 on a map that size is you can often be places where enemies aren't, since everyone always moves to the same points especially during assault. but when(if?) they get 16v16 or maybe more, then sneaking around in the open becomes much less likely. not to mention the long way around is a LONG way around on the big maps so what if you drop in with an Atlas brawler (granted an assault mech is more likely to have a mix of weapons then a medium), be ready to have lunch while you travel.

But that doesn't mean the map can't be good. Just make the mountains so they can only be climbed by JJ's. Reduce the LRM damage as I think should happen anyway, and add a few more detains tot he terrain in a few areas not everywhere. Then you have a few different dementions to the map. Only spotters or JJ LRM boats can get up top, and when the LRM rains start you aren't wasted in 2 volleys. Not that lights have issue with LRM's thanks to speed, but I think LRM's also need the speed increased to change that.

[Kaziganthi]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Well first which base are you talking about...

But getting to any point on that map always includes cross large open areas, the only thing of it is 8v8 on a map that size is you can often be places where enemies aren't, since everyone always moves to the same points especially during assault. but when(if?) they get 16v16 or maybe more, then sneaking around in the open becomes much less likely. not to mention the long way around is a LONG way around on the big maps so what if you drop in with an Atlas brawler (granted an assault mech is more likely to have a mix of weapons then a medium), be ready to have lunch while you travel.

But that doesn't mean the map can't be good. Just make the mountains so they can only be climbed by JJ's. Reduce the LRM damage as I think should happen anyway, and add a few more detains tot he terrain in a few areas not everywhere. Then you have a few different dementions to the map. Only spotters or JJ LRM boats can get up top, and when the LRM rains start you aren't wasted in 2 volleys. Not that lights have issue with LRM's thanks to speed, but I think LRM's also need the speed increased to change that.

well considering you were talking about Alpine..you do know there is a road that links to the 2 starter bases together, that goes down and around the bottom of the montain that most people just take the shortcut across.

As to making the mountains capable of only being traversed by jump capable mechs...wlecome to JJSniper online. You wont be able to hit the mechs unless using missiles due to the weak vertical traverse of weapons that aren't arm mounted. And trust me, if you had JJ LRM mechs up there, AKA Catapults...you'd be wasted by the rain real fast, as the tighter missile grouping is due to Artemis (as it should be, as its an upgrade for missiles to hit better) and LOS which they'd have over the entire field. They'd just Focus fire on the JJ mechs on your team, destroy them, then take their time hammering the rest of your team.

[M4rtyr]

Kaziganthi, on 16 March 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

well considering you were talking about Alpine..you do know there is a road that links to the 2 starter bases together, that goes down and around the bottom of the montain that most people just take the shortcut across.

As to making the mountains capable of only being traversed by jump capable mechs...wlecome to JJSniper online. You wont be able to hit the mechs unless using missiles due to the weak vertical traverse of weapons that aren't arm mounted. And trust me, if you had JJ LRM mechs up there, AKA Catapults...you'd be wasted by the rain real fast, as the tighter missile grouping is due to Artemis (as it should be, as its an upgrade for missiles to hit better) and LOS which they'd have over the entire field. They'd just Focus fire on the JJ mechs on your team, destroy them, then take their time hammering the rest of your team.

I don't mind having a 'pult up on the hills, if they drop the LRM damage. Because to have to cross so much terrain LRM's can crush a mech in just a couple volleys as is. As for snipers, you can't traverse down any more then you can up so unless at long range being on top of the highest hills only make for spotting, but snipers get counter sniped. But to address you points over all, if there is a little more added to the map in -SOME- areas (like a few more LOS breaks), then you get some avenues of approach for the non-JJ mechs. Now you suddenly have a multi dimentional map. Arty firing if someone is in the open, sniper duels, possible brawl in an urban area or such in nomans land as the ground forces try to get to each others rear. But what we have now is just a boring LR duel/standoff. Yeah i've snuck around the base of the massive hill things tend to center on with my hunchie but still the forces are so fractured its silly when you do that and as I said... when the map has more players on it you wouldn't be able to sneak around like that at all because twice the enemies means twice the open spaces covered.

It's a terrible map mostly because of ECM and LRM's and we are trying to fix LRM's and other weapons causing boating issues.

So more on topic...
Direct fire weapons need to lose pinpoint convergence without losing accuracy (the hardest thing to fix)
LRM's need damage decreased, speed increased and ECM silliness fixed.
SRM's need damage decreased.
Streaks need a much more restrictive lock.

Missile fixes are easy and if they can figure out convergence then the boating issues are done. WE'll still have boats but they won't be nearly as dominate.

Edited by M4rtyr, 16 March 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Syllogy]

Boats are easier to kill than Balanced Builds. Just FYI.

[Kaziganthi]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

I'll say it again.

Take a lance of LRM boats vs a lance of other mechs in TT. The LRM's will lose every time because they weren't designed to be as destructive their advantage is to give them thats range and standoff with IDF but not the killing power of GR's PPC's etc. If they were meant to be that destructive with the range advantage then the lore would have them dominating the battlefields but it was a conscious choice to make them weaker to make the game and lore more interesting. But MWO is stepping away from that and on an open map they can easily dominate the field (minus ECM lol).

This is why I consider them support weapons. They dish out some good damage but the other main line mechs finish the job.

so your saying a lance of purely LRM boats like the crossbow..will lose compared to a lance of brawling mechs...Only if they let them get close enough. Lets see 200 LRM's per volley at say average range of 7-14 hexes (because it'd be stupid to let them get closer) concentrated on 1 mech against how much return fire that can hit at that range concentrated on 1 mech. I reckon the LRM's would win.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 16 March 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[Kaziganthi]

M4rtyr, on 16 March 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

I don't mind having a 'pult up on the hills, if they drop the LRM damage. Because to have to cross so much terrain LRM's can crush a mech in just a couple volleys as is. As for snipers, you can't traverse down any more then you can up so unless at long range being on top of the highest hills only make for spotting, but snipers get counter sniped. But to address you points over all, if there is a little more added to the map in -SOME- areas (like a few more LOS breaks), then you get some avenues of approach for the non-JJ mechs. Now you suddenly have a multi dimentional map. Arty firing if someone is in the open, sniper duels, possible brawl in an urban area or such in nomans land as the ground forces try to get to each others rear. But what we have now is just a boring LR duel/standoff. Yeah i've snuck around the base of the massive hill things tend to center on with my hunchie but still the forces are so fractured its silly when you do that and as I said... when the map has more players on it you wouldn't be able to sneak around like that at all because twice the enemies means twice the open spaces covered.

It's a terrible map mostly because of ECM and LRM's and we are trying to fix LRM's and other weapons causing boating issues.

So more on topic...
Direct fire weapons need to lose pinpoint convergence without losing accuracy (the hardest thing to fix)
LRM's need damage decreased, speed increased and ECM silliness fixed.
SRM's need damage decreased.
Streaks need a much more restrictive lock.

Missile fixes are easy and if they can figure out convergence then the boating issues are done. WE'll still have boats but they won't be nearly as dominate.

The thing is, it is a multi-dimensional map, but the way current play style is, Death Match, with no other objective, every map isn't used to it's full potential. You just see it more on Alpine because it's larger. Why use the entire map for a 15 min match, for any slow mech it takes over half that time to go along the road. So easiest thing to do is go in a straight line between the bases and start brawling. But due to the openess of that area, people get hammered by the any long range weaponry on either side and blame the map, rather than thinking of other ways to win.