128 replies to this topic

[Tompaboy]

For me it's like i'm grouped up with players with lower Elo rating than me one day
and i get some kills and better my rating and the next day with my higher Elo
i get to play with players with higher Elo rating and i dont kill anything. And then
i guess my rating drops and the next day i again get some kills.
So it's like i'm pending from one group to another.

Or maybe its my skills that are really mood dependent

[John MatriX82]

Elo isn't working for me, roughly in 10 matches I experience furious stompage of the enemy team or the total contrary, with 1 or 2 out of 10 matches that are an enjoyable close loss or a close win.

I'm experiencing huge tonnage differences, and I often end up against teams usually with 150 tons more, and I've seen also differences reaching up to 240-250 tons more in the other team. Take a look at this screenshot:



This tends to happen more when I group play but I experience this also in pure pug, several times I feel forced to bring in heavy or assault mechs otherwise when I run mediums I can't deal with such a different weight tonnage.


I believe ELO should take into account a battlevalue factor of the involved mechs. When I'm into a hugely upgraded medium (let's say sporting endo, ferro, DHS XL engine) I think it's fine if I get paired up against a Heavy with STD+ENDO and DHS the other side.. not 1 Atlas and 2 Cataphracts MORE in the other team.

[Yokaiko]

Thontor, on 15 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

I honestly don't see what many people are seeing and complaining about... Maybe its only certain Elo rating brackets that have issues, of maybe its the time of day you are playing...

You win some, you lose some... Sometimes the games are one sides, but that is just the way the game works even with perfectly even teams

No most of them aren't even close, not when I have been playing. Yesterday I had a 4 kill game with 600 damage in a hunchback.

...that was every kill we got.

Thontor, on 15 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Sometimes some people do more damage than others, doesn't mean the players that got low damage are worse than you, most likely they were focused down early and either died or were too busy trying to get away to do much damage.

Overall it has been a huge improvement over phase 2, even with the occasional mismatch weight classes... I really don't get why so many people are so up in arms...

No it hasn't. Phase two I could drop solo and have a reasonable expectation of a fight, now its how many assaults can we jam against a primarily medium team 3-4 games that happened yesterday.

Thontor, on 15 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

What is your win% since phase 3 was implemented? Mine is just over 50%, exactly where I would expect.

1.73 since phase three down from 3.2 at one point in open beta.

...and I run solo at least 50% of the time (or did) now if I can't group I just don't play. Which sucks, because there aren't a lot of people on when I do play, the euro guys haven't gotten off of work yet, never mind the other Americans.

Edited by Yokaiko, 15 March 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[FerretGR]

Thontor, on 15 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

I honestly don't see what many people are seeing and complaining about... Maybe its only certain Elo rating brackets that have issues, of maybe its the time of day you are playing...

Maybe it's confirmation bias. People always remember the best or the worst of things and tend to think that those experiences are the common ones. It comes up in poker all the time, especially at lower levels... you'll hear people say "I hate picking up KK (or QQ or JJ), someone always hits their ace," when the reality is that if someone is holding an ace, there are only three cards in the deck that can help them, so it's not happening nearly as often as it feels like its happening.

Stomps, in this game, are the same thing. You remember them because you rage when they happen to you and when you see the ****** scores. But I'm betting folks are remembering the worst games and their confirmation bias springs into action whenever it happens to them (ie."this is always happening to me! the matchmaker always pairs me with dolts and I'm always number one on the losing team!"). You don't remember the ten close-fought battles with competent teammates, you remember the one where there was a moron Atlas who decided to tunnel rush alone. It's human nature, but I think it's much more likely that this is what's happening than that the matchmaker is malfunctioning badly. Because there are plenty of folks, myself included, for whom it just isn't malfunctioning.

Edited by FerretGR, 15 March 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Yokaiko]

One would think that the 30ish some odd hours I played over the be a hero weekend would have sorted that out.

[Stealthsfury]

FerretGR, on 15 March 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

So... you want to lose every match for a while, in order to lower your Elo, so you can go back to stomping newbies? And that's fun to you? Very sporting.

You can game the system by losing, and your Elo will go down, and then you'll win for a while, and it'll go up, and you'll be right back to where you started. Makes more sense to just play your best every time and maybe improve enough to actually compete at your current Elo.

Some people are better than others, indeed, that's true. They get an Elo that reflects that and then they face actual competition. For the "good players" who don't want that, most single player games have a "beginner" difficulty setting, and that should net you the easy wins you're looking for.

I'm getting frustrated with the fact that I have seen several matches where the bottom four in my group do under 50 dmg in a match. I'm talking zero 16 and 25. I understand there are new players that is great, but they should be no where near people who have been playing the game with a very high ELO score. I am not having fun when the system forces me to fight ridiculous odds.
Suppose you want to just mess around with a flamer hunchback. Your high ELO in that class completely screws your team. Who is that fair to?
I may have a blast screwing around but everyone on my team suffers. So I am actually pigeon holed into bringing the most optimal builds to properly represent my ELO. How is that fair to me?

[ShadowSpirit]

EgoSlayer, on 14 March 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I voted yes Elo is fair but there is no question the match maker needs more work on team mech balance, which is independent of Elo.

.... if they actually had some sort of interface where people could meet, greet, and chat then we wouldn't have to be so damn dependent on ELO and the matchmaker. They need "areas" where people go to do things ... this is the most unfriendly online egame to new players I have seen in a long time. It plays just like a solo shooter yet they strive to balance it with random pugs?

We need areas in the game focused on:

1) Newbies (stock mechs, learn the game)
2) Solo (Solaris Dueling)
3) Groups (up to 4 like it is now)
4) Groups (8 vs 8)

... the entire random nature of drops really diminishes the appeal of the game.

1) Can't choose maps
2) Can't coordinate matches
3) Can't choose mech based on map
4) Can't just practice with your friends (why the hell not?)

I know this post is fragmented but to sum it up .... .... getting dropped in Alpine sucks when you are in your SRM / M. Laser boat. If we could actually coordinate drops a bit there would be a lot more "fun" in the game.

SS

Edited by ShadowSpirit, 15 March 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Nightfire]

Thontor, on 15 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

I honestly don't see what many people are seeing and complaining about... Maybe its only certain Elo rating brackets that have issues, or maybe its the time of day you are playing...

Here is the main point, you just don't get it. It could be many things, it could even be my Elo rating though I will admit straight up that I have no direct way to know this. I do know that the times I lose, there is almost always 3-4 people on my team who are dead very quickly and for no good reason. This isn't to say I don't have good or close matches. The only thing it means is that when I lose, my team tends to lose as a result of being handicapped and that is incredibly frustrating.

My experience is as valid as anyone's and there seems to have a number of people who are experiencing the same thing.

[FerretGR]

Stealthsfury, on 15 March 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'm getting frustrated with the fact that I have seen several matches where the bottom four in my group do under 50 dmg in a match. I'm talking zero 16 and 25. I understand there are new players that is great, but they should be no where near people who have been playing the game with a very high ELO score. I am not having fun when the system forces me to fight ridiculous odds.

See the above post about confirmation bias.

Stealthsfury, on 15 March 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I may have a blast screwing around but everyone on my team suffers. So I am actually pigeon holed into bringing the most optimal builds to properly represent my ELO. How is that fair to me?

You're not responsible for anything other than your own fun when you play this game. At least that's my attitude. If I want to play for lulz, I'll play for lulz. Nobody can tell you "you're doing it wrong" because there's no such thing. Who cares what everyone else thinks! If they're that good, they can handle having one guy derping around in a 4P with flamers (I have mine painted with Phranken Red head to toe btw, just to ensure that folks really get the fire engine effect when I'm flaming them, plus it makes mechs run faster ). Stop taking all the responsibility for your team's wins, Stealth... all that weight on your shoulders is going to give you an ulcer

ETA: I should note that I really only pull out old Flamer 4P when I'm running with my team, and they REALLY love it when I do... heh heh

Edited by FerretGR, 15 March 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I so predicted this. Even my timing was correct. About few weeks after Elo starts we get the tears over people missing pugstomping and trying to couch it as something else. That 'something else' is 'the rest of my team sucks'.

GLORIOUS.

Was looking back over stuff we discussed a month ago. Here, I'mma quote myself:

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

The implications are that you've lost faith in the developers. That's unfortunate but admittedly a big danger to letting players into a game in beta. We're probably 6-12 months away from what PGI would consider a finished product, still releasing core content and balancing basic functions.

Here's the thing about what Elo will do. It will effectively break people out roughly into groups of comparable skill for matchmaking both with you and against you. This means that you won't drop against 4x or 8x teams of highly competitive players unless you are one yourself. It also means that you'll drop on the same side as people comparably skilled as yourself.

Skewing weighting by dropping new people in a premade with high Elo people isn't going to work that well as what you'll really do is drop those new people into matches far, far above their skill level and the person with the massive Elo is only going to be a tiny bit down the rung. Elo is a huge, huge long gradual curve.

You'll still drop with and against people a bit up and down the scale from yourself, just not drastically so. The huge bit that will change is that EVERYONE in the match on both sides is going to be of a roughly comparable skill level. That's a big difference and will remove a lot of the 'well, my team is all in trial mechs. Guess I'm going to get rolled' aspect.

The people who will get punished the worst are actually premade groups. Most the people with an 80% success rate because they are dropping with teams against less skilled opponents are going to have a very bad couple of weeks of getting rolled. They're only going to drop in their groups against very skilled, very competitive other groups and that's going to shake the hardcore folks out from the pub farmers in a 'message delivery from Terrible Terry Tate' sort of way.

What's even more funny is that they can't 'step down'. If they drop pug without the benefit of their team they're going to drop as pugs in games full of highly competitive teams without the benefit of teamspeak and just get *crushed*.

Sit back, relax, enjoy yourself. Pug life will improve not because of a shift in how many premades you play against but because your fellow players will be made up of folks of a comparable skill. Then get some popcorn because the next round of QQing will all be premade groups learning how to deal with strings of 20 or so defeats and watching their win/loss and KDR drop like a stone. The gates to the garden of Pugstomping will soon be closing for them and their tears will make sweet wine indeed.

So what we have now are people used to pugstomping dropping with teams of people who, honestly? Are probably their exact same skill level but are used to being able to pug without teamwork because the other side always sucked. Now they're losing at LEAST 50% of the time and are used to winning 80%.

How about someone talking about how terrible Elo is post a screenie of their stats? Are they at 0.80 win rate? 0.30? Or are they around 1.0 still and just hating that and now looking for someone to blame?

[FerretGR]

Nightfire, on 15 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I do know that the times I lose, there is almost always 3-4 people on my team who are dead very quickly and for no good reason.

Couldn't it be that a couple of guys having a bad game, getting headshot, what have you, is just as likely at the root of that as being paired with scrubs? I think it's people dying quickly that leads to steamrolls, and I sometimes die quickly, **** happens, you know?

[Mackman]

Stealthsfury, on 15 March 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'm getting frustrated with the fact that I have seen several matches where the bottom four in my group do under 50 dmg in a match. I'm talking zero 16 and 25. I understand there are new players that is great, but they should be no where near people who have been playing the game with a very high ELO score. I am not having fun when the system forces me to fight ridiculous odds.
Suppose you want to just mess around with a flamer hunchback. Your high ELO in that class completely screws your team. Who is that fair to?
I may have a blast screwing around but everyone on my team suffers. So I am actually pigeon holed into bringing the most optimal builds to properly represent my ELO. How is that fair to me?

you do have a point: Nobody wants to have to always play at top competitiveness or risk dragging their team down. I hope that in the future, PGI has two separate leagues or queues: One competitive, with a visible Elo or leaderboard, and one casual, which still has a loose Elo matchmaking, but doesn't have a visible Elo or leaderboard.

However, it wouldn't make sense to do that right now, because it would fragment an already small playerbase. That would just lead to longer queue times and worse matches in both leagues. Right now, I'm waiting for PGI to start tweaking and find-tuning the system we do have.

Edited by Mackman, 15 March 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[FerretGR]

MischiefSC, on 15 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

quote and quoted quote

You can predict the future. Are you a wizard?

[Paula Fry]

BIRD IS THE WORD!



Sorry could not resist!

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

ELO sucks as it is. Needs work, needs other factors to help it figure out to drop a good match plain and simple. Since this is the 5th ELO thread I think PGI got the point that it's messed up and needs work, they've stated that it's something they are working on and will be tweaking etc.

For me it's not about stomping PUGs or getting stomped all the time, it's about good close matches! If I loose a match and the numbers were close then I'm very happy with it, but the 8-0 and 8-1 matches are just terrible. Sometimes its a great strategy played very well against a team that simply freaked out and looked like chickens running around the yard, but most of the time it's just being out classed by tonnages and the pugs lemming like ways.

[Nightfire]

MischiefSC, on 15 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I so predicted this. Even my timing was correct. About few weeks after Elo starts we get the tears over people missing pugstomping and trying to couch it as something else. That 'something else' is 'the rest of my team sucks'.

MischiefSC, you haven't a clue. Furthermore you're projecting and you're a hatemonger. You add nothing useful, project malice on to others in your chosen group of those you find acceptable to despise.

This is a valid problem, just because is doesn't affect you doesn't mean that it is said to deflect inability to play or inflated stats due to what you perceived as pervasive pug stomping. My win/loss is well above 50% so it isn't sour grapes that I'm losing all the time. What is a problem for me is my enjoyment level when I'm expected to carry those who play like they have no idea., especially when my teams loses as a result.

If you can't put forward a view without casting aspersions upon others, the mods really should just ban you.

[Ozric]

In general, I'd say Elo is working pretty well. I pug exclusively and have been having a much more balanced time of it.

[FerretGR]

Mackman, on 15 March 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

I hope that in the future, PGI has two separate leagues or queues: One competitive, with a visible Elo or leaderboard, and one casual, which still has a loose Elo matchmaking, but doesn't have a visible Elo or leaderboard.

That's a good idea for folks who feel guilty about playing for lulz... unranked matchmaking. Nice. I think you're right that with the current size of the playerbase splitting it is a bad idea though, for now at least.

Edited by FerretGR, 15 March 2013 - 08:02 AM.

[Nightfire]

Thontor, on 15 March 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

From my perspective it seems most people are making assumptions that aren't necessarily true

Dying quickly and doing less damage does not necessarily make someone any worse of a player than you are... All it means is the enemy focused them down, it could just as easily happen to you...

Are you telling me that you have never once just been killed quickly before you had a chance to do much damage? Just because the enemy decided you were their first target?

Well first point, have I been killed quickly? Well yes, it happens. I'm usually in the top 4 for damage but on occasion your premise does happen.

The point you are missing is when I can watch them go out and so silly things like watch the Raven look at the SplatterCat and run right at him in a straight line. While some of us might point at the scoreboard, it is by no means the only way to form an opinion on a player.

[FerretGR]

Nightfire, on 15 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

The point you are missing is when I can watch them go out and so silly things like watch the Raven look at the SplatterCat and run right at him in a straight line. While some of us might point at the scoreboard, it is by no means the only way to form an opinion on a player.

Basing your opinion of a player's skill and whether or not he's a scrub on a single boneheaded move (or even a series of boneheaded moves) is just as bad as basing it on a single bad game, IMHO.

Maybe he's awesome, but tonight, he's drunk. Happens to the best of us...

Edited by FerretGR, 15 March 2013 - 08:08 AM.