13 replies to this topic

[Scop]

Dawning understanding of Streak and conventional SRM splash damage issues has me, for one, wondering about LRM splash as well. The general impression I've gotten from gleaning a few threads is it's a less major issue, but since we're on the topic, why not explore it?

Vapor Trail found an excellent way to feel out the splash radius of SRMs.

Vapor Trail, on 14 March 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Ok... some further testing...

Turns out SRMs have an approximate six to seven meter blast radius.

Six meters. Even as an approximate value it's huge for what is essentially a direct fire weapon.

No wonder a Commando takes it from toes to top-hat from an SRM strike.

Methodology: Use the 270m max range of SRMs to detonate them at a known point. Place the target outside this point and move it slowly closer until damage registers. Record distance. Repeat for veracity.

Demonstration Video:

Great for SRMs, but a seemingly impossible method to apply to LRMs in Testing Grounds without a buddy to relay the lock to the shooter while he stands just outside 1,000m from the test subject.

The idea I had was to manipulate the minimum range of LRMs and test the results. Screencaps follow under spoilers.

Setting Up the Trial

Spoiler

Here stands our hapless test subject, a stock COM-1B, inside the minimum distance of my STK-5M's LRMs. Elevation on the target should help for this idea. It turns out that Forest Colony Snow has an ideally-placed hill for this test; the same should be true of non-Snow if the COM happens to spawn in the same spot.



As a control, I hit him with an ER large laser...



... and observe a 5% reduction in the mech's health. This is consistent and reasonable with the LL's damage (9) and COM's total HP (208). 199 / 208 = .9568, and .95 * 208 = 197.6, for 10.4 damage. That slight variance seems to be within reasonable limits and can be accounted for by rounding the percentage to a whole 95%. The LT armor appears to have between 30 and 20% remaining (25% would in fact equal 3 [12 stock armor - 9 LL damage]). But in any case, the focus of this post is supposed to be reproducing LRM splash.

Performing Splash Test

Spoiler

I've released the lock and aimed my reticule at various points near the subject until I found a good spot. Note the rangefinder's reading--outside LRMs' minimum range. It would have been harder to get a good angle on this spot without the elevation difference.

Next step is to dumb-fire an LRM salvo and observe the effect.




Splash damage from 25 LRMs takes off 20% of the subject's health. Listed LRM damage (1.8) * 25 = 45. Splash values are yet-to-be-understood fully, leaving aside the way it seems to get amplified for Commandos and other small and complex-geometried mechs. Notwithstanding, our percentage estimate says the subject is down 52 health. This includes the earlier hit from the ER LL, subtracting that gives us an estimate of 43 damage from the splash of 25 LRMs.

That's 43 damage in splash, nearly as good as a full salvo of listed damage.

Section Estimates Based On Paperdoll Information

Spoiler

• Center Torso: 70% armor [11.2/16]
  
• Right Torso: 60% armor [7.2/12]
  
• Left Torso: 0 armor, 90% internal [0/12 and 8.1/9]
  
• Right Arm: 80% armor [9.6/12]
  
• Left Arm: 100% armor [12/12]
  
• Right Leg: 0 armor, 30% internal [ 0/16 and 3.6/12]
  
• Left Leg: 70% armor [11.2/16]
  
• Head: 100% armor [12/12]

Averaging these percentages as decimals (including whole 1.0s for the sections with intact armor and internals) results in a neat .75, or 75%--the overall health percentage that the game gives for our subject. This seems to support the estimates.

Grains of Salt

Spoiler

This topic, Amaris the Usurper's experiments on SSRM and SRM yielding a drastically higher damage than anticipated due to splash, with contributions and discussion from other posters. This is one to watch while the issue is explored. Of particular interest is Paul's response here. NB:

Paul Inouye, on 14 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

This problem has 2 levels.

First is that Testing Grounds has quite a few issues when reporting damage and the numbers you're seeing are inflated quite a bit (almost double). We will be addressing this bug and others as Testing Grounds matures over time.

Second, this does NOT eliminate the findings that S-SRMs AND SRMs are doing more damage than intended. This is not due to some top secret, behind your back weapon balancing. It has to do with splash damage, how it was first implemented and the new smaller Mechs coming out.

In actual play, of course, mechs are in constant motion, employ non-stock configurations of armor, and make use of AMS, cover, and ECM. Setting up a controlled trial in Training Grounds is a different animal.

Also, more testing is needed to determine if LRMs have the same splash radius as the various SRMs. And finally, the bulk of the splash in this trial was around the test subject's legs. Vapor Trail's demonstration and others' observation seem to indicate that COMs catch splash especially hard in the upper body.

Conclusions

This trial demonstrates a method of testing the splash damage of LRMs in Testing Grounds. It indicates that splash damage around the lower body of a Commando results in nearly as much damage (estimated 43) as a direct-contact salvo of the same LRMs (listed 45, not including splash). I encourage other posters to conduct their own trials and share their results, and look forward to further developments from devs and beta testers.

TL;DR

To test LRM splash damage, dumb-fire an LRM salvo into the environment near the test subject, and observe the results. Having high ground enhances the test.

[The Verge]

you have covered basically everything. well done!
second, LRM's have that arch and are generally used at ranges greater than 180 meters.
don't know how that will work out, but keep up the good work.

[Ralgas]

sounds good, i'd further suggest using a single tube launcher and lrm 5 to keep flight path deviation and the math simple

[Scop]

V3rg3r3, on 14 March 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

you have covered basically everything. well done!
second, LRM's have that arch and are generally used at ranges greater than 180 meters.
don't know how that will work out, but keep up the good work.

Thanks! Short range and high angle was the best option available since we can't take a friend into Testing Grounds to spot targets at this time. Until then, or I find a dummy standing right against a wall I can walk splash radii along, this is the method I have.

Ralgas, on 14 March 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

sounds good, i'd further suggest using a single tube launcher and lrm 5 to keep flight path deviation and the math simple

My STK-5M has just such a launcher; I switched out its NARC in favor of an LRM 5. Next test I'll have to limit it to that weapon.

[Sug]

V3rg3r3, on 14 March 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

LRM's have that arch and are generally used at ranges greater than 180 meters.

You sir are correct.

[Karenai]

Just made a dumbfire test on the Awesome in Forrest Colony. It can be seen in a straight line for more then 1000m.


Using a 45 missle salvo Atlas:
At 1006m LRMs always register. At 1008m LRM register around 50% of the time.

The 1006m Alpha took 4%

Firing from the same line of sight, right from the front, with Artemis IV and TAG on target, from 750m destroys the Awesome from 100% everytime. Quite a difference in damage.

Spoiler

Going to try more with annother mech, which does not destroy the target in one Alpha.

The 1008m shots seem to implicate that the LRM do not quite fly the same pattern all the time.

Using C4 Cata with 1xLRM 5 without Artemis, without TAG and no modules (yes it is all broken in testing ground, nevertheless).

5 Salvos LRM 5 dumbfire one pass.

999m 79%
1002m 81%
1003m 85%
1004m 87%
1005m 84%
1006m 96%

It seems to drop linear up to 6m. After 6m any damage can be due to different flying patterns (some missiles explode to late).

Edited by Karenai, 17 March 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Scop]

Karenai, on 17 March 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Just made a dumbfire test on the Awesome in Forrest Colony. It can be seen in a straight line for more then 1000m.


Using a 45 missle salvo Atlas:
At 1006m LRMs always register. At 1008m LRM register around 50% of the time.

The 1006m Alpha took 4%

Firing from the same line of sight, right from the front, with Artemis IV and TAG on target, from 750m destroys the Awesome from 100% everytime. Quite a difference in damage.

Spoiler

Going to try more with annother mech, which does not destroy the target in one Alpha.

The 1008m shots seem to implicate that the LRM do not quite fly the same pattern all the time.

Using C4 Cata with 1xLRM 5 without Artemis, without TAG and no modules (yes it is all broken in testing ground, nevertheless).

5 Salvos LRM 5 dumbfire one pass.

999m 79%
1002m 81%
1003m 85%
1004m 87%
1005m 84%
1006m 96%

It seems to drop linear up to 6m. After 6m any damage can be due to different flying patterns (some missiles explode to late).

Very interesting!

That 45-LRM salvo should do 81 in direct damage. Give that much all to an Awesome's CT and you'll core it, of course; stock is 60 points of armor, all have 50 HP internal structure, and if engines have 15 HP, that'll be more than enough. That's saying nothing of how an AWS may or may not receive more damage in splash than other chassis. Not every LRM is going to hit CT, granted, but it's something. But this dumb-fire at max range should be a helpful method for learning more.

Unless you beat me to the punch, I'll have to dumb-fire at long range at an Atlas, then compare.

[M4rtyr]

One problem, Devs said TG damage numbers are all messed up, not the same as live. Not sure if its just splash damage or all, but since you are talking LRMs, its going to mess up your tests.

[Quinton]

query: LRM missiles explode at 1000m. when they hit this limit, will the exploding missiles cause splash damage? or do the missiles need to impact something (ground, wall, another mech) to activate the splash? could be an effective standoff weapon against ecm on larger maps.

Also, i've been hit with friendly LRM's before, taken no damage but been rocked quite a bit by them, usually from standing in the spot they last had a lock on their targeted mech. do LRM's do FF damage at this point? If not, could dumbfiring at a friendly in close proximity to an enemy mech trigger splash against that enemy mech?

Last question: do obstacles (walls, hills etc) soak up splash dmg? or does it propagate through/around those objects?

sadly, since TG is effectively single player only there really is no way to effectively test any of these, unless you happen to go 8-man dropping with some very helpful enemies.

[Scop]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

One problem, Devs said TG damage numbers are all messed up, not the same as live. Not sure if its just splash damage or all, but since you are talking LRMs, its going to mess up your tests.

That's absolutely true, but Paul's post also points out it doesn't invalidate the findings about splash having a bigger effect than it ought.

Quinton, on 17 March 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

query: LRM missiles explode at 1000m. when they hit this limit, will the exploding missiles cause splash damage? or do the missiles need to impact something (ground, wall, another mech) to activate the splash? could be an effective standoff weapon against ecm on larger maps.

I'll reply with another quote from Karenai's post above:

Karenai, on 17 March 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Just made a dumbfire test on the Awesome in Forrest Colony. It can be seen in a straight line for more then 1000m.


Using a 45 missle salvo Atlas:
At 1006m LRMs always register. At 1008m LRM register around 50% of the time.

The 1006m Alpha took 4%
(snip)

999m 79%
1002m 81%
1003m 85%
1004m 87%
1005m 84%
1006m 96%

It seems to drop linear up to 6m. After 6m any damage can be due to different flying patterns (some missiles explode to late).

Karenai, on 17 March 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Also, i've been hit with friendly LRM's before, taken no damage but been rocked quite a bit by them, usually from standing in the spot they last had a lock on their targeted mech. do LRM's do FF damage at this point? If not, could dumbfiring at a friendly in close proximity to an enemy mech trigger splash against that enemy mech?

Last question: do obstacles (walls, hills etc) soak up splash dmg? or does it propagate through/around those objects?

sadly, since TG is effectively single player only there really is no way to effectively test any of these, unless you happen to go 8-man dropping with some very helpful enemies.

Your anecdote about taking friendly LRM fire is interesting and informative, too. Yesterday during play a teammate walked into my Streak shot and I saw them impact his back clearly, but I assumed he took damage. It would've been wise to check his percentage on IFF, but I have definitely witnessed team-kills where a conventional splat-cat got overzealous in the middle of a furball and lit up a friendly. I assumed LRMs were just as dangerous to friendlies once they were armed, but it bears looking into.

To check the propagation of splash you'd need a dummy to stand near irregular environment and test. That sounds like another thing to include in 8v8 testing sessions.

I would indeed love to piggy-back onto Amaris's tests. As far as I can tell he's interested in including all missiles into his research. Training Grounds is controlled, but imperfect, and they always say it for a reason: "More research needs to be performed."

[Karenai]

Dumbfire Test Atlas Front on caustic
one pass

Spoiler

5x LRM 5 1008m                100% (zero hits)
5x LRM 5 1007m                100% (zero hits)
5x LRM 5 1006m                  97%
5x LRM 5 1005m                  90%
5x LRM 5 1004m                  89%
5x LRM 5 1003m                  86%
5x LRM 5 1002m                  84%
5x LRM 5 1001m                  86%
5x LRM 5 1000m                  85%
5x LRM 5 999m                    85%
5x LRM 5 750m                    92%
5x LRm 5 750 and TAG        93%

Edited by Karenai, 18 March 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

give the op mc's and a cigar! great work you win the beta testers internetz!

hope this thread gets lots of good discussion happening.

i haven't read thoroughly but do the damage values change between dumbfire, locked fire, and artemis fire from the same distances? would be interesting to see what "boosts" to damage you may get for each method of lrm fire.

would love to have precise increments of damage done for each range, missle amount and type of fire. i know that would be a huge graph but i'm sure people would love to find out if that artemis was best or what amount of missles dictate viability and what is a waste of tonage ie, little damge from 50%+ of the fighting ranges compared to an alternate weapon system.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 18 March 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[CheezPanther]

I thought using BAP and sensor module would let me get a lock and see this myself at longer than 800.. But no.. Apparently both modules and BAP are not functional on the training grounds..

IS this a known bug?

[Karenai]

Damage numbers from controll lock on firing for dumbfire seemed strangly lower then dumbfire, so I ran a one pass test on dumbfire vs. lock on.
Shooting 10 times or until armor breach.

Spoiler

Atlas caustic from front lock on

1x 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 7x 8x 9x 10x
LRM 5 98% 97% 95% 94% 93% 92% 91% 89% 88% 87%
LRM10 97% 95% 93% 91% 88% 85% 82% 79%
LRM15 95% 91% 87% 84% 81%
LRM20 94% 89% 84% 80%
LRM20TAG 94% 88% 83%

Atlas caustic from front lock on with target loss, locking annother mech

1x 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 7x 8x 9x 10x
LRM5 98% 97% 95% 94% 93% 92% 90% 89% 88% 86%
LRM10 97% 95% 92% 90% 87% 85% 82% 80%
LRM15 96% 91% 88% 83% 80%
LRM20 95% 90% 86% 82% 76%
LRM20*looking way 94% 89% 85% 80%

Dumbfire 850m

1x 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 7x 8x 9x 10x
LRM5 97% 94% 91% 89% 86% 83% 81% 78%
LRM10 94% 89% 84% 78% 73%
LRM15 92% 83% 76%
LRM20 88% 77%

Dumbfire damage is pretty much double then lock on damage. Losing lock does not change damage.

PS. No matter what I do, the post keeps its strange formating.

Edited by Karenai, 19 March 2013 - 04:14 AM.