34 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

First of all, I LOVE THE MAP. Though not everyone does. I had the chance to speak with some people who don't love it the way I do and I thought I'd share their concerns. The biggest of which is that it doesn't make much sense. Please allow me to elaborate.

Our battlemechs can climb some of the steepest inclines and get to the very top of the mountains only to have those we can see out of our range and those who are in our range so far beneath us that we cannot get LRM targeting. Then to basically fall off the mountain with little to no damage because we can walk down that steep incline at full throttle....

The top of the peaks should be the domain of jump capable mechs as spotters and those of us without jump jets should be relegated to the more gentle slopes and valleys to have big stompy robot wars. Not everyone will agree, but I am very curious as to how the dynamics of the battles and tactics would shift if the mountains acted as funnels for the majority of the forces while only jump capable mechs could find the enemy. To come around a bend and run smack dab into the whole enemy force, or to have to go on search and destroy. Now, this may lend to cap rushes because alpine is too big to backtrack much, but that is not much different than what we have now.

Thoughts?

[Gregory Owen]

i completely agree with you, alpine was originally touted as having places you could only get to with JJ's,

there needs to be more cliffs and less slopes. the entire big mountain should be sheer on the southern side.

[Training Instructor]

Yeah, I thought the spider would reign supreme on this map. Nope, Raven 3Ls can just run up that 75 degree slope at full speed and keep on firing streaks.

[Voridan Atreides]

Yeah, I don't think it should be possible for non JJ mechs to get up such steep inclines.

[Khobai]

Honestly I would be fine with mechs going up steep inclines if it significantly reduced their speed like it does in tabletop.

I would consider it the same as going up Level 2 elevation... which is 3 movement points in tabletop. So a Raven that's normally 9 movement (145kph) should be more like 3 movement (48.6kph) when going up a very steep incline.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Since many slopes are steep enough to count as cliffs, those should be JJ accessible only. I mean we have a gentle slope on Forest Valley Snow that mechs cannot traverse, yet goofing with the yeti is all good on alpine?

There are terrains that mechs simply cannot traverse either. Alpine SHOULD be a place where Spiders and Jenners hold the heights, sniping at fat Stalkers and Atlases, forcing the OpFor to deploy their own screen or to try to push through the harrasing fire to their objectives.

[Mackman]

There's nothing sillier in this game than walking an atlas or a stalker up that ludicrously steep incline. The only thing is, that would make maneuvering on the map even more tedious than it already is. I think they need to introduce a few passes or tunnels through the mountains, then make the rest of it impassible except by JJ's.

[Commander Kobold]

Training Instructor, on 16 March 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Yeah, I thought the spider would reign supreme on this map. Nope, Raven 3Ls can just run up that 75 degree slope at full speed and keep on firing streaks.

how is a spider supposed to reign supreme anywhere?

Khobai, on 16 March 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Honestly I would be fine with mechs going up steep inclines if it significantly reduced their speed like it does in tabletop.

I would consider it the same as going up Level 2 elevation... which is 3 movement points in tabletop. So a Raven that's normally 9 movement (145kph) should be more like 3 movement (48.6kph) when going up a very steep incline.

this is a better idea than only letting JJs go up the hills that way mechs can still get up the hills (and get sniped/LRMed to death ) but JJ mechs will have a signicant advantage in doing so.

Bishop Steiner, on 16 March 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Since many slopes are steep enough to count as cliffs, those should be JJ accessible only. I mean we have a gentle slope on Forest Valley Snow that mechs cannot traverse, yet goofing with the yeti is all good on alpine?

There are terrains that mechs simply cannot traverse either. Alpine SHOULD be a place where Spiders and Jenners hold the heights, sniping at fat Stalkers and Atlases, forcing the OpFor to deploy their own screen or to try to push through the harrasing fire to their objectives.

I don't know about you but if there was a jenner up on a hill sniping people I'd just throw a volley of LRMs at it and be done with it. or sick the neighbourhood PPC stalker/phract on it.

[mayakashiii]

I like the layout, but I hate the graphics. Definitely not CryEngine there.

[Stormwolf]

IMO, Alpine is the best map in the game.

[Khobai]

define best.

IMO alpine is the best in certain areas but the worst in others.

Alpine does an amazing job of introducing a vertical element to the game. However game balance on alpine is atriocious and often degrades into whoever has the most light mechs wins.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Omni 13. That's assuming you can a) elevate your weapons adequately, get a lock in the time it takes a PPC spider to pop up and shoot you c) said spider doesn't just immediately pop back Behind said hill and let it absorb retaliatory fire.

As for it being " tedious", welcome to war days, months and weeks of mind numbing boredom punctuated by seconds of absolute terror. It's called manouevering, and maybe it'll help get people to pilot something besides Stalkers and Atlases.

@Khobai, TT also had immpasible terrain. A mech cannot traverse a level 1 hill that instantly turns to a level 5, for instance. Many of these peaks are similar. The retain is not unlike that mentioned in the old 3025 TRO WHere Wolverines and Phoenix hawks were able to repel a large force using the mountain tops, where the heavier assaults could not reach them.

[Khobai]

Quote

@Khobai, TT also had immpasible terrain. A mech cannot traverse a level 1 hill that instantly turns to a level 5, for instance. Many of these peaks are similar. The retain is not unlike that mentioned in the old 3025 TRO WHere Wolverines and Phoenix hawks were able to repel a large force using the mountain tops, where the heavier assaults could not reach them.

Yes but the goal is not to force everyone into jumpjet mechs the same way that streaks/lrms force everyone into ecm mechs. We want jumpjets to be useful but not compulsory. likewise ecm should be the same.

If you required jumpjets to get on top of mountains there would literally be no reason to use any mech without jumpjets on alpine (assuming we can pick what maps we play on in the future). It would be extremely boring if you were limited to a choice of 3 different mechs when playing alpine.

So I think the best compromise is to allow mechs to climb mountains but at a significantly reduced speed (although there should be a minimum speed of say 40kph so assaults arnt punished too badly). So having jumpjets would still be a huge advantage, but an advantage you could do without.

And yes TT had impassable terrain. But assaults also had way more weapons and armor proportionally in TT than they do in MWO. Assaults get very little to compensate their lack of mobility in MWO. So I see no reason to limit their mobility even more. Assaults are already borderline obsolete on alpine so why make that problem worse?

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[Stanton Langley]

I agree--there should be some advantageous positions only available to jump-capable mechs. There should also be positions that are best utilized by mechs with arm-mounted weapons. I don't feel this should be unique to Alpine, but rather have a place on all maps.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jump jets would be no more necessary than on river City. If one wants on top of the citadel, one needs jjs. But one doesn't need to get on the citadel to win on river city. Likewise, one doesn't need to crest very single peak to win on Alpine.

Just as there are places too tight on most maps for an Atlas to drive through, there will always be (or SHOULD) always be areas that aren't universally accessible. As long as win/loss doesn't balance on it. And if people bring a top heavy team with no jumpers to chase down that last enemy Spider, too bad. Go cap.

[Khobai]

Quote

Jump jets would be no more necessary than on river City. If one wants on top of the citadel, one needs jjs. But one doesn't need to get on the citadel to win on river city. Likewise, one doesn't need to crest very single peak to win on Alpine.

I disagree. Alpine is way more vertical than river city. If you start limiting what slopes mechs can climb up its going to become compulsory to have jumpjets on Alpine. Not only that but the routes mechs have to travel then become highly predictable and you always know where the enemy is going to be.

[Livewyr]

Assault mechs need to actually trade mobility for their stupidly large weapons loadouts.

[Synra]

The slopes are the least of the problems on Alpine.

I have played it a lot now, and I am so completely sick of it. It's the worst map available, because the same thing happens every time. First everyone spends 2 minutes walking out to the Epsilon area, even on Assault. Then a massive battle breaks out where one team is quickly wiped out. That's pretty much the end of it.

Don't even try to tell me "well do something else then". I have looked for other strategies to use on this map. They are virtually non-existent because the map is so stupidly big, open and plain. Your team needs to win the brawl at epsilon, or you are 99% likely to lose the match. If your team doesn't stick together, and they branch out to different areas, they will simply be crushed one piece at a time. If you can convince your whole 8 mean team to go somewhere other than Epsilon, then you are just turning a 2 minute walk to combat into a 6 minute walk.

A lot of people seem to be getting sick of this map, and just want to get it over with as soon as possible. If a quick base cap victory is possible a lot of times people will just go for that instead, just to get the match done with.

[Kell Commander]

While I do like this map a lot, the idea that many of the peaks would be inaccessible to mechs without JJ was what I was actually expecting.Some of those sloped are at close to an 80 degree angle which should be impossible for a mech to walk up. If anything, make going up a slope like that slow a mech considerably.

[Gaan Cathal]

Synra, on 16 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Don't even try to tell me "well do something else then". I have looked for other strategies to use on this map. They are virtually non-existent because the map is so stupidly big, open and plain. Your team needs to win the brawl at epsilon, or you are 99% likely to lose the match. If your team doesn't stick together, and they branch out to different areas, they will simply be crushed one piece at a time. If you can convince your whole 8 mean team to go somewhere other than Epsilon, then you are just turning a 2 minute walk to combat into a 6 minute walk.

It's one of the few maps where ambush is a viable tactic, for a start.