144 replies to this topic

[Davers]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

I do so love this arguement. Stop complaining about LRM's doing sick damage, just don't use half the mechs in the game and use a fast one so LRM's do abosolutely nothing.

Talk about an all or nothing approach. That's not balance, not even close.

The problem is that all mechs have a role, but we have too many assault and heavy mechs. Part of the problem is the matchmaker not giving all teams the tools they need.

LRM damage is the easiest damage to avoid taking in the game. Even PPCs do damage under their min range. Not LRMs. Get within 180m and they are useless.

It's not that half the mechs in the game shouldn't be used. It's just that slow mechs don't respond well when it comes to battlefield maneuvers.

[Forestal]

Idolo, on 17 March 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

The problem comes when both teams have an overabundance of missile boats, at that point it becomes a game of who dares to peek out of cover first and get murdered, makes for a very "static" match.

Especially when you factor in the lag caused by 4 lrm boats on each side cross-firing at the same time-- sure, it looks a glorious (stuttering?) mess... if your frame rate is not taking a hit.

That's what really got me off playing lrm boats-- which I love x 3, both on my team and the other side ("counter-lrming" is almost as much fun as "counter-sniping")-- I don't think my grahics card can handle it.

[RickySpanish]

I love LRMs! They're so freaking easy to use and so many people use them so very wrongly. I don't launch mine unless I'm closer than 500m to my target, preferably within 300m at which point the target has very little room to avoid the attack and Artemis makes them utterly devastating.

[MischiefSC]

Good positioning and lining up targets is something every weapon fires.

Getting more kills with LRMs than with brawling or sniping is easy. LRMs are an easier weapon to use to good effect than any direct fire weapon - even than the splatcat.

That's part of why people hate LRMs.

Second is that they control the battlefield. ECM/LRMs drive tactics. All tactics in every match are based around this - who has them, who doesn't. You can move from cover to cover and avoid snipers if you're fast and careful but LRMs are less forgiving for the target - two LRM boats at about 45 degrees from each other, about 250m apart? They can get around most cover and if you attack one the other will kill you in 1-3 hits.

Nothing else works like that. Everything else takes more skill to deliver killing hits with. Even a splatcat - it at least has to risk getting into point blank.

That's why people hate LRMs. They are poorly balanced to all other weapons in the game and theoretically balanced by ECM but it's availability in pugs is random - hence they are not balanced. Only in so far as sometimes you're screwed by them no matter what you do, sometimes your team is screwing the other guys.

[wolf74]

Lrm do not add much for lag did a stress test in closed beta 16 mech all LRM boat firing away maybe a 4-8%(aka 50+fps to about 46+fps) fps drop. SRM on the other hand from 50+ fps down to 3-5fps.

LRM, SRM & Streak SRM all use different code for there systems.

[Dirkdaring]

Weztside, on 17 March 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

I sift through the forums and half of the threads are full of LRM hate.

Umm are we reading the same forums? Can you link some of these?

[Forestal]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

I do so love this arguement. Stop complaining about LRM's doing sick damage, just don't use half the mechs in the game and use a fast one so LRM's do abosolutely nothing.

Talk about an all or nothing approach. That's not balance, not even close.

Duh, this IS the "Game Balance" MWO is going for in its business/gaming model-- no ONE mech is suppose to "own" in any and all situations/mechs...

I mean, how do you not get the point that they want you to play ALL the different mechs-- WITH people playing all the other mechs?


As other threads/people have pointed out, the only real problem with MWO gaming now is the options and features for "match-making balance" and "team-communications"... cos THAT (whether you have enough lites/snipers on your team and whether you can communicate with them) is what really decides whether the lrms will super effective/lame in your particular match.

I mean, I've had games where I lrm-ed all the way through... as well as matches where I was one of the first to go (even though I obviously stayed well away from brawling distance)

Edited by Forestal, 17 March 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[Faldrin]

Mlaser's fired 1224 hit rate 93.30%
LLasers fired 490 hit rate 95.92%
LPulse Laser 373 hit rate 94.10%

Hmm Direct fire weapons are OP the need a nerf with hit rates like that it means no skill needed!

While yes it is known that splash damage is too high I don't really notice it as I very rarely get hit by them!


Edit

The point of this post Is LRMs require more skill to use than any other weapon. As a person who sucks with LRM's with timing and other such things. Almost no direct fire weapons require any type of skill other than facing a target at less than 1000! But LRM's at 500+ requires more planing (not by much true) than any other weapon system in game. So the no skill stuff is rather silly from people that just want brawler online.

Edited by Faldrin, 17 March 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[James Warren]

Personally I think map design is largely to blame. The number of complaints about LRMS rose sharply when Alpine Peaks was introduced to the map rotation. Combine this with the fact that a lot of people have taken AMS off their 'mechs since ECM became so commonplace and you've got a tough situation.

I think the map designers will need to think carefully about achieving the perfect balance of cover/open areas/alternate routes - so that players aren't forced into bottlenecks or open areas unnecessarily. River City is well made in this respect because you can easily approach the enemy base without leaving yourself vulnerable to LRMS, yet certain areas of the map are quite suitable for LRMS and other long range weapons.

Occasionally I do get hit by an LRM barrage (usually when I'm in a bad position to start with) and think, "wow, that did a lot of damage", but honestly its not like an ER-PPC boat or gauss sniper couldn't have done the exact same thing (and probably in a much shorter time-frame, too). I personally don't think that 'lack of skill' is really a factor, either. Its not exactly difficult to point and click unless you're using a joystick or something.

In short, its a much more complicated issue than simply the damage of LRMS needing adjustment.

[Forestal]

wolf74, on 17 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Lrm do not add much for lag did a stress test in closed beta 16 mech all LRM boat firing away maybe a 4-8%(aka 50+fps to about 46+fps) fps drop. SRM on the other hand from 50+ fps down to 3-5fps.

LRM, SRM & Streak SRM all use different code for there systems.

I believe this "lag" (not really "game lag" or "internet lag") is related to how much work the end user's particular graphics card is required to do-- i.e you can't really "look away" from your own srms firing, so the "lag" there will obviously be more apparent/consistent.

OTOH, you're not looking at much more than a static screen if you're remote-locking on an lrm-target-- so my "lag" starts when I laser-tag another lrm boat as I fired my 2 x lrm15 + artemis (aka line-of-sight targeting) AND the tagged/targeted lrm boat is doing the same back to me...

And having to maintain target-lock means watching 2 x 30 missiles sail back and forth between us... why did I not break lock and run for cover? Hey, I fired first, okay-- you back off!

Edited by Forestal, 17 March 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[Ryllen Kriel]

I have no issue with LRMs, they are a viable weapon platform. I just don't use them because I find the play style boring. Barely seeing your enemy and just pushing a button now and then without having to worry about trajectories or leading targets or incoming fire just doesn't do it for me.Though I do take great satisfaction in tearing apart LRM-only mechs at close range once I get to them. It's not just because they have LRMs, it's just when I find a player who has no other defense other than packing a mech with nothing but LRMs while expecting the rest of the team to do the dirty work.

In most cases it's easy enough to use terrain to avoid LRMs or work with a teammate if an ECM is around. Sometimes matches go sour fast if there's no ECM, no cover and the other team has the right mix of hardware...but, that's life.

[Forestal]

James Warren, on 17 March 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Personally I think map design is largely to blame. The number of complaints about LRMS rose sharply when Alpine Peaks was introduced to the map rotation. Combine this with the fact that a lot of people have taken AMS off their 'mechs since ECM became so commonplace and you've got a tough situation.

Yeah, I have a love-hate relationship with AMS too... I can play 10 games with AMS without ever getting targeted-- and the moment I take them off, lrms galore!

[Davers]

Ryllen Kriel, on 17 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I have no issue with LRMs, they are a viable weapon platform. I just don't use them because I find the play style boring. Barely seeing your enemy and just pushing a button now and then without having to worry about trajectories or leading targets or incoming fire just doesn't do it for me.Though I do take great satisfaction in tearing apart LRM-only mechs at close range once I get to them. It's not just because they have LRMs, it's just when I find a player who has no other defense other than packing a mech with nothing but LRMs while expecting the rest of the team to do the dirty work.

In most cases it's easy enough to use terrain to avoid LRMs or work with a teammate if an ECM is around. Sometimes matches go sour fast if there's no ECM, no cover and the other team has the right mix of hardware...but, that's life.

For LRMs to be effective you need LOS and preferably Tag. If you sit behind a hill and fire them you will do very little damage. Artemis requires LOS remember.

I saw an Awesome the other day with 4 LRM15s and Tag. It was pretty sad looking. Who would want to pilot a mech that is defenseless against a Spider at 179m?

[Ryllen Kriel]

I guess I should of specified more what I meant. With LRMs, you can sit on the crest of a hill and duck back and forth while keeping missle lock and just pound the fire button. I have done alot of damage that way with them but find it boring. Others might love LRMs, I don't hold it against them. I mostly only make fun of and enjoy tearing apart people who make LRM-only mechs and have no close range weaponry at all. Sorry if I wasn't more clear about that.

[Sephlock]

@ topic title: No and no.

[Skunk Wolf]

wolf74, on 17 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Tell me one other weapon that makes you hold a lock for 13sec to get a max range hit with it?

That gives a lauch warning on the HUD, and has a long flight time also.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

people who hate lrms want to be able to stand out in the open with impunity and not die.

Ryllen Kriel, on 17 March 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

I guess I should of specified more what I meant. With LRMs, you can sit on the crest of a hill and duck back and forth while keeping missle lock and just pound the fire button. I have done alot of damage that way with them but find it boring. Others might love LRMs, I don't hold it against them. I mostly only make fun of and enjoy tearing apart people who make LRM-only mechs and have no close range weaponry at all. Sorry if I wasn't more clear about that.

Ryllen Kriel, on 17 March 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

I guess I should of specified more what I meant. With LRMs, you can sit on the crest of a hill and duck back and forth while keeping missle lock and just pound the fire button. I have done alot of damage that way with them but find it boring. Others might love LRMs, I don't hold it against them. I mostly only make fun of and enjoy tearing apart people who make LRM-only mechs and have no close range weaponry at all. Sorry if I wasn't more clear about that.

you as the target can also walk behind a hill and totally negate that weapon system.

[Mister Haha]

The Cheese, on 17 March 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

I'd argue that it takes just as much skill to not get hit by them.

Until you realize not all mechs move fast enough.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mister Haha, on 17 March 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Until you realize not all mechs move fast enough.

I drive an Atlas with 2 SRM6s, 4 Ml and an AC20 but I dont seem to have any issue with killing people and pulling 4 to 600 damage a game

[Naja]

Mister Haha, on 17 March 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Until you realize not all mechs move fast enough.

Open ground should mean death to slow moving mechs. If an assault wants to wander out into a field, it best have ECM or an AMS umbrella, otherwise it's just a giant walking target