443 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

cost has nothing to do with balance. its still bad even if you have 200 million cbills like I do.

Centurion-A has 55 firepower and goes 98kph with a std engine... try doing that in a Dragon. You cant. because it cant use srm6s.

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

cost has nothing to do with balance. its still bad even if you have 200 million cbills like I do.

Centurion-A has 55 firepower and goes 98kph with a std engine... try doing that in a Dragon. You cant. because it cant use srm6s.

The flame can however bang out 40 damage pin point, every time and nail 87 kph with ease.
And for that matter -all- dragons once you know how to actually aim the arms are far far more accurate than the centurion.

[Mavairo]

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

The flame is decent, but its an MC only variant. And when the best variant is MC-only variant there's a problem...

Honestly I'm not that big on the Flame. The best thing about it is the AC20 capability. But there are way way too many circumstances that ST mounted gun is a liability. It doesn't articulate like the arm weapons do. Which makes it a royal pain in the *** to do anything but a straight shot onto a light mech with it. I think half the reason my Flame has bagged so many mechs (it's personal KDR is 7 to 1 right now) is simply due to the fact that everyone's obsessed with running around in fat boys.

Of all the variants I like the Fang, 1N and 1C the best. The 5N I don't really use as a 5N, other than the fact all of it's goodies minus the crotch rocket are in the arms. Its really really accurate, but those 3 ballistic slots are pretty much impossible to use and keep the mech either cool running, or fast afterwards.

Edited by Mavairo, 18 March 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[CheeseThief]

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

cost has nothing to do with balance. its still bad even if you have 200 million cbills like I do.

Centurion-A has 55 firepower and goes 98kph with a std engine... try doing that in a Dragon. You cant. because it cant use srm6s.

Is that an issue with the dragon or SRM's though? A mech isn't bad just because it can't boat SRM's.

[jay35]

Not enough positives to make up for its negatives. Since the Trebuchet, the Dragon is no longer truly "fast" or hard-hitting enough.
90kph for a mediocre damage output, and not enough of any one type of weapon to really compete in a head-to-head with other Heavies, doesn't cut it. And it lacks any other attributes that might make it appealing, such as ECM or JJs. Not that it should have those, just that its lack of them means there's little incentive to take a Dragon when other Heavies do the job better, and some Mediums outclass it as well. A Treb is faster, a Hunchie hits harder, and a Centurion seems more durable and makes a better high-speed striker with a smaller profile. Why take a Dragon?

At this stage, as much as I like hero mechs, I wouldn't take the Fang or Flame for more than about 2500MC, because they have the same issue in hero form: The Yen Lo Wang is a much better striker with a slimmer profile, and the Ilya is a complete thug of a braler in comparison to the dragons. With the entire purpose of hero mechs being to rack up c-bills at an accelerated rate, my YLW or Ilya already do that to perfection. The Dragons would only be interesting anymore as eclectic pieces or collectibles.

Edited by jay35, 18 March 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[Khobai]

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Is that an issue with the dragon or SRM's though? A mech isn't bad just because it can't boat SRM's.

Its an issue with SRMs. If SRMs were balanced... then the dragon's ballistic slots would be in parity with the centurion's missile slots. Right now missile slots are vastly superior than ballistic slots and its unbalancing for mechs without missile slots.

Trebuchet-7M: goes ~105kph with xl engine, has jumpjets, does 50 damage
Centurion-A: goes ~100kph with std engine, does 55 damage
Catapult-A1: goes ~80kph with xl engine, has jumpjets, does 90 damage

I mean how can the Dragon compete with any of those without SRM6s? It just cant... SRM6s completely outclass every other weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 18 March 2013 - 09:38 PM.

[Avimimus]

It and the Centurion need their battle-claws activated... Any mech with a hand or a battle-claw should get a bonus to the damage it does in charging attacks (and a reduction in the self-damage if an enemy charges it head on).

[SirLANsalot]

What killed the dragon was the UAC "Fix". Before that I ran a DRG 5N with UAC/5 AC/5 and twin ML with a big eng in it. That mech TORE the living daylights out of mechs and was fast enough to even make lights scared. Since PGI has yet to get the jamming under control on the UAC, it has made the dragon a very sad mech to use. As now you need 3 or more UAC's to even slightly start to counteract the jamming so to keep the DPS on target that the UAC was intended for. (UAC is basically the anti mech MG that everyone wants the normal MG's to be)

[Mavairo]

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Its an issue with SRMs. If SRMs were balanced... then the dragon's ballistic slots would be in parity with the centurion's missile slots. Right now missile slots are vastly superior than ballistic slots and its unbalancing for mechs without missile slots.

Trebuchet-7M: goes ~105kph with xl engine, has jumpjets, does 50 damage
Centurion-A: goes ~100kph with std engine, does 55 damage
Catapult-A1: goes ~80kph with xl engine, has jumpjets, does 90 damage

I mean how can the Dragon compete with any of those without SRM6s? It just cant... SRM6s completely outclass every other weapon.

All of those mechs have much much easier to target STs than a Dragon. (Kitty Cat aside) Popping them is fairly easy if they run Xls.

Edited by Mavairo, 18 March 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[Khobai]

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All of those mechs have much much easier to target STs than a Dragon. (Kitty Cat aside) Popping them is fairly easy if they run Xls.

Centurion doesnt run XL.
And the other two have the advantage of jumpjets which let you mitigate a lot of damage.

So im not really seeing your point.

[NocturnalBeast]

The biggest weakness of the Dragon is the huge center torso, other than that it is just a Centurion with more armor.

[Mavairo]

Khobai, on 18 March 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Centurion doesnt run XL.
And the other two have the advantage of jumpjets which let you mitigate a lot of damage.

So im not really seeing your point.

Jump jets don't let you escape mechs that have good arm articulation
And the Cent can lose those SRM6s pretty fast. That is pretty much the only weapon system he's carrying at that point if he wants to stay cool or have the ammo for the full duration of the match.

[Khobai]

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Jump jets don't let you escape mechs that have good arm articulation

So dont attack mechs with good arm articulation. Attack the ones with torso mounted weapons. Jumpjetting can mitigate a tremendous amount of damage if you use cover, pick the right targets to attack, and jumpjet at the right times to avoid getting hit by the brunt of your opponent's alpha strike, or at least spread some of that damage to your legs.

The point is jumpjets are one more advantage other mechs have that the Dragon doesn't have. Between the dependency on subpar ballistics, dependency on XL, the lack of jumpjets, and the inability to use multiple SRM6s, there isnt a whole lot going for the Dragon.

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And the Cent can lose those SRM6s pretty fast

Not if its played correctly. It has a smaller profile and both arms to use as shields. Unlike the Dragon it has no weapons in its arms so the arms are completely expendable and it loses nothing by taking damage to its arms. And because the Centurion has a standard engine I would say its actually much tougher to kill than a Dragon with an XL.

Again... the problem with the Dragon is that other mechs like the Centurion just do the same thing way better.

Edited by Khobai, 18 March 2013 - 10:07 PM.

[Mavairo]

That's all well and good. But that's not to say a mech with good articulation won't attack the Trebby though

[Kasiagora]

I agree with a lot of the things I've read here, the Dragon is designed more like the old Shadow Hawks, Wolverines, and Griffons in that they're decently quick, and not made for boating. It really should have been designed 5 tons lighter because it really is a medium mech in the heavy weight range. Their pilots are typically die-hard fans of the chassis that take the time to push themselves harder to make up for this and I wouldn't be half the pilot I am now in the game if I hadn't have made the mistake of starting in a Dragon 5N. Because of it I forced myself to always be aware of where my weapons actually are in relation to my cockpit, use that to my advantage, and work with one of the worst hard point layouts in the whole game.

I would like to add, however, that I think the Dragon would be a more appreciated mech if there was a 1-on-1 game mode. It would be some short rounds, sure, but if you didn't know what the enemy might bring at any moment and you only had one to worry about then you might actually take an AC/5, LRM-10, and 2 medium lasers because alpha doesn't need to be as astronomically high to compete and you could engage the enemy at any range.

[Khobai]

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I would like to add, however, that I think the Dragon would be a more appreciated mech if there was a 1-on-1 game mode

Or if the game had respawns. One of the problems with no-respawns is that youre at a distinct disadvantage whenever you don't use the very best mech possible for whatever role youre attempting to fill.

[IraqiWalker]

These are the main reasons right now:

1- CT hit box is risky.

2- No large maps (other than alpine peaks) where it can shine thus rendering it's speed advantage useless at the moment
That speed advantage is the only thing it had to compensate for it's average fire power. With that not being used right now it's like operating with a handicap.

3- It's role as "Flanker" has not been explored well (on account of the maps being to small to really do that

4- Most of the weapon systems that would be excellent for it have not been introduced yet.

5- Inability to carry enough weapon systems to make it matchable to other heavies without sacrificing speed.

6- Requires very specific and unique styles of play not expected of it's class. It's more desired by pilots of light mechs than by pilots of heavies as there are certain things to be expected when going from one type of heavy mech to another. Since the Dragon is so different most heavy pilots don't take to it easily. Especially since it works so differently from their other heavies. Light mech pilots love it. For them it's like piloting a light mech with more armor and fire power. Also a bigger hit box.

These are the main reasons why it is not effective for the time being.

However I have seen people build Dragons specifically to be splat cat hunters (don't ask how that works) and some of them have had great success with it so far. Personally with my buddies when we deploy one of us has a nice high speed drive-by Dragon that can match our lights in stride and we work as the light/scout lance for the group. His dragon makes sure that no enemy lights f*** with us.

Kasiagora, on 18 March 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

I would like to add, however, that I think the Dragon would be a more appreciated mech if there was a 1-on-1 game mode. It

Wait until the Colosseum arena is released and they allow a 1-on-1 battle system in it. That would be great for the Dragon.

[Edmiester]

The Dragon is my favorite mech. But it does have its shortcomings. Here's what i perceive them to be.

1. Oversized. The mech seems to have huge hitpoints for the CT. Even when you're trying to use the arm as a shield, its snout sticks far out and is easy to hit. Did you notice the Stalker seems to be modeled with a smaller torso than in battletech pics/renders? It should have a small snout reduction

2. Arm weapon point convergence fix. I can aim fine with the arms but sometimes it seems they "cris cross" fire way too often with mechs at very short ranges. It's hard to know if you aimed correctly or not. A lot of times when I fire in close ranges with arm weapons it visibly hits, but doesn't register, and when it doesn't visibly hit, it does register... it's weird. I also believe that when they put state rewind in for the rest of the weapons, this won't be as much of a problem.

3. Center Torso SRM spread (most notably SRM6). If you use a SRM in the CT, it seems more spread out than when I use SRM6 in other mechs. Make the SRMs fire from the most center points in the torso first before the outer ones maybe? LRMs fire fine.

On a side note: I do feel the damage in the Centurion spread out way more and is definitely more of a Brawler's mech. Even the AL I can fit in a PPC and have a dual SRM6 for close up where the Dragon has to rely on a very balanced mix of weaponry, and the damage is much more focused on the CT.

That's pretty much it. If you treat the Dragon as an all-around mech rather than the brawler, you will find its niche. I know because when i try to be a full out brawler in a Dragon with all the possible configs, I found that my best builds were the all-around ones. This is still my favorite mech to play, albeit not my "best" in terms of PUG ratio

[Khobai]

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4- Most of the weapon systems that would be excellent for it have not been introduced yet.

This is true as well. The Dragon would benefit immensely from being able to use Light AC/5s or Rotary AC/5s.

[Dragonkindred]

Artgathan, on 18 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

So what I've seen so far are that the Dragon suffers from:

• A large CT
  
• Poorly Placed Hardpoints
  
• It's too heavy for what it offers (IE: It's a Heavy mech that acts like a Medium Mech)

I've seen a few comments about how the Dragon is meant to be a fast flanker. Given with how engines work in MW:O I highly doubt the chassis can be made to work effectively. For example, a Centurion that runs at 98.0 kph (with speed tweak, a standard engine, 322 points of FF armor and Endo-Steel) has 17 tons left for weaponry. A Dragon with the same load-out (98kph, 322 FF, ES) has 16.5 tons left for weaponry. To run the largest Standard Engine (which runs at 106.9 kph with speed tweak, a whopping 9% faster than the Centurion) leaves the Dragon with 8 tons for weaponry.


The obvious fixes for the Dragon then are:

• Shrink the size of the CT
  
• Redo the placement of some hardpoints (for example, shifting the missile slots out of the CT or moving one of the ballistic hardpoints to the torso)

However the last issue, of the weight problem with the Dragon requires a more creative solution. I think that perhaps the chassis could benefit most from a special tweak that Vassago Rain mentioned (essentially, mechs that were designed for certain things get bonuses for doing that thing - an Awesome with PPCs gets +10% PPC Damage for example). Giving the Dragon a reduction in the weight of heavy engines may help the chassis. For example, if the Dragon carries an engine larger than a 300, it gets a 10% reduction in the weight of the engine. This would allow the Dragon to act as a flanker since it would actually be able to carry decent firepower while moving fast.

Sorry to be quoting before reading the whole thread, but you got me thinking

Why not let Dragons uses XL engines without having the XL take up side torso space? They have this huge CT that everyone harps on about, so lets turn that problem into a benefit.

Yes, I know it's against the TT rules, and I kind of hate myself for suggesting it, but I might work.

As a dedicated Dragon pilot, I would be totally satisfied with this.

[HammerSwarm]

Valrin, on 18 March 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

The dragon can go 106.9 with a max engine. The fastest heavy behind this is the 'phract at 86.6 with a max engine. I'd say 20+ kph is a fairly big margin. You are giving up firepower for speed and maneuverability with the dragon. Can other mechs stack missiles and hit a higher alpha? Sure. But I've had some very nice damage games with many kills. It's all about the pilot. Still, though, it is harder to compare this to other mediums (the cent comes to mind with the zombie variant that is so popular). It is not for everyone, but can be very effective if played correctly.

This only applies if you have cover. This mech is really at it's best while playing hide and seek.