443 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Artgathan, on 18 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

So what I've seen so far are that the Dragon suffers from:

• A large CT
  
• Poorly Placed Hardpoints
  
• It's too heavy for what it offers (IE: It's a Heavy mech that acts like a Medium Mech)

I've seen a few comments about how the Dragon is meant to be a fast flanker. Given with how engines work in MW:O I highly doubt the chassis can be made to work effectively. For example, a Centurion that runs at 98.0 kph (with speed tweak, a standard engine, 322 points of FF armor and Endo-Steel) has 17 tons left for weaponry. A Dragon with the same load-out (98kph, 322 FF, ES) has 16.5 tons left for weaponry. To run the largest Standard Engine (which runs at 106.9 kph with speed tweak, a whopping 9% faster than the Centurion) leaves the Dragon with 8 tons for weaponry.

Try using an XL on the dragon, since they always die to CT shots anyway.
Only the Cent9D (of the Cents) can reach the efficient speed for a 50ton mech with Endo and XL.
A Dragon can out-speed any Centurion apart from the 9D and do it while carrying more firepower.

That being said the Dragon is still inferior due to terrible pt blank performance on that super-wide ballistic arm and terrible hardpoints in general.

[LordDeathStrike]

Artgathan, on 18 March 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

A few threads have popped up here recently discussing competitive play balancing and overall chassis balancing (such as 'Is every chassis viable for competitive play?'). The general consensus appears to be 'no'. I've seen a lot of players claim that the Dragon is a "trash chassis". I'd like to know why (I've never piloted a Dragon, aside from a few trial mechs a long time ago, so I don't have much insight).

Is it the hardpoints? Is it the way the hardpoints are distributed? Is it the size of the CT? Is it the Torso Twist?

Please be specific about what you think the problem is. I'd like to get discussion going about:

1. What the Dragon's problems are, and
2. What we can do to fix them.

I'd like to see all mechs have a place in competitive play. Variety is good. The point of this thread is to analyze the problems underlying balance issues, and see if we - the players - can find solutions to help level the playing field.

there are no terrible dragons, only terrible dragon pilots.

[Khobai]

Dragons were terrible They are fine now.

This thread was started pre-SRM nerf. Before the SRM nerf, Dragons were awful, because they couldn't compete with the speed/firepower combination of a Centurion-A with x3 SRM6s. Nor could they compete with the flat-out firepower of a Catapult-A1.

But now that SRMs are balanced, and not having missile hardpoints is no longer a hinderance, the Dragon is much better able to hold its ground against other mechs in its weight class.

[Vhetra]

Khobai, on 01 April 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Dragons were terrible They are fine now.

This thread was started pre-SRM nerf. Before the SRM nerf, Dragons were awful, because they couldn't compete with the speed/firepower combination of a Centurion-A with x3 SRM6s. Nor could they compete with the flat-out firepower of a Catapult-A1.

But now that SRMs are balanced, and not having missile hardpoints is no longer a hinderance, the Dragon is much better able to hold its ground against other mechs in its weight class.

They also took a big nerf after collision was removed. Dragons are mean tacklers, and efficient to boot. I remember running a 400XL engine in the CB and doing work in my Dragon-5N.

Nowadays I run my 1C, with a 300XL and usually manage to make top-4, if not top place in my team. The problem is most people don't know how to put a dragon to its uses. Once Collision is re-introduced, and I'm done goomba-stomping lights with my Highlander, I'll run them down with my Dragon and crush them under my Myomer-supported foot.

[SilentWolff]

Deathlike, on 25 March 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

They are still terrible in competitive play.
It doesn't mean Dragons suck; they are simply not used in any serious play that some other mech could do better.

You should quit posting, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Bogus, on 31 March 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

That being said, dragon is still weak compared to stuff like hunchie and cat because it can't bank/boat weapons.

Lol, so bad. Another guy that needs to quit posting.

Mike Getsome, on 31 March 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Dragons are awesome.
l2p.

This.

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again. The Dragon 1C is one of the best mechs in the game. If you are failing with this mech, its not the mech, its you.

Edited by SilentWolff, 01 April 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[Fate 6]

1) CT sticks out, so you can't twist to spread damage. Makes it ok to run an XL, but at the same times makes it basically pointless to run a standard since people are always hitting your CT whether they try to or not.

2) No tonnage limits, so lighter chassis aren't that great. A heavy pilot that's as good as me in my medium is worth more right now.

3) Ballistics hit registering is wonky, and convergence from arm weapons on fast mechs is terrible (hurts Cents too)

4) No decent small ballistics - AC is ok but bugged right now, MGs suck, and nothing in between.

Basically you can get the same thing from a Catapult or Jagermech. They are only 5 tons more, but they simply have better hardpoints and hardpoint locations.

EDIT: Of course, this is all coming from a guy who pilots mediums, Dragons, and Awesomes, which all the "competitive" players say are bad.

Edited by Fate 6, 01 April 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[One Medic Army]

I don't fail with my Dragons, I tend to do well with them.
I just recognize that they have some pretty severe deficiencies and I do better in other heavies, like the C4 and K2 catapults I bought over the weekend.

[Khobai]

Quote

1) CT sticks out, so you can't twist to spread damage. Makes it ok to run an XL, but at the same times makes it basically pointless to run a standard since people are always hitting your CT whether they try to or not.

All heavy mechs share that problem. Catapults and Jagermechs not only get hit in the CT just as easily but also get hit in the head quite often too.

Quote

2) No tonnage limits, so lighter chassis aren't that great. A heavy pilot that's as good as me in my medium is worth more right now.

No tonnage limits is only a problem if the other team has considerably more assault mechs than your team. The Dragon is fully capable of killing any other mech in its own weight class.

Quote

3) Ballistics hit registering is wonky, and convergence from arm weapons on fast mechs is terrible (hurts Cents too)

4) No decent small ballistics - AC is ok but bugged right now, MGs suck, and nothing in between.

If youre using primarily ballistics on a Dragon youre doing it wrong. The two best Dragons are the ones with 4 energy hardpoints for a reason; Flame and 1C. The lack of decent small ballistics is really only a problem for the 5N.

Edited by Khobai, 01 April 2013 - 09:25 PM.

[Taj the White Tiger]

The problem with most of the dragon and the medium mech builds is in general at the moment is there's no real value in taking a 50-60 ton mech that doesn't go past 100Kmh. It means your not fast enough to disengage for 65-70 ton heavies which do 80 Kmh at will yet you still get out gunned by them. Dragons and mediums in general are only really viable when they have enough speed they can efficiently act as Hunter Killers and break off from a brawl to engage scouts. That means plus 100 Kmh and weapons that will make you an efficient harasser and recon killer


The way to easily solve this would be implementing say a tonnage limit of 500 for 8 mechs. Then suddenly mediums and dragons become much more useful

Edited by Taj the White Tiger, 01 April 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[Teralitha]

SilentWolff, on 01 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again. The Dragon 1C is one of the best mechs in the game. If you are failing with this mech, its not the mech, its you.

The best mech in the game is the dragon 1N ! Not 1C GET IT RIGHT

Edited by Teralitha, 01 April 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Teralitha, on 01 April 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

The best mech in the game is the dragon 1N ! Not 1C GET IT RIGHT

To each his own, the point is, the Dragon is far from terrible.

[Noobzorz]

LordDeathStrike, on 01 April 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

there are no terrible dragons, only terrible dragon pilots.

Wrong. Until they fix the 1N, the Fang, and the 1C, there will be lots of both.

[Teralitha]

Fate 6, on 01 April 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Of course, this is all coming from a guy who pilots mediums, Dragons, and Awesomes, which all the "competitive" players say are bad.

If they are saying such things they are not the competitive players. They are bads with cheese.

[SilentWolff]

Noobzorz, on 01 April 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Wrong. Until they fix the 1N, the Fang, and the 1C, there will be lots of both.

Wrong.

[Noobzorz]

SilentWolff, on 01 April 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

To each his own, the point is, the Dragon is far from terrible.

It's not terrible. What it is is obsolete.

If you're building a zoomy mech, just go with the cicada. If you're building a brawler, the CTF and CPLT are much better.

The only variant of Dragon that does something better than the CTF (other than novelty) is the 5N, and that's stupid.

SilentWolff, on 01 April 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

Wrong.

Sorry, but no. It isn't. I wish it were.

http://i.imgur.com/QSDTlXN.jpg
You are mistaking your good performance in the appalling 1C (assuming it is actually good and you don't just have a selective memory) as the result of a good mech. Well I hate to tell you this, but the mech ******* sucks. Congrats on performing well in the Heavy classes equivalent of the SDR-5K (again, assuming you actually are).

Edited by Noobzorz, 01 April 2013 - 10:01 PM.

[Teralitha]

This topic is the perfect example of the kind of feedback that stands out regarding balance.

Some say the Dragon is an outstanding mech.

Others say its garbage.

This is the standard by which all mechs in the game should be measured.

This means its a balanced mech.


Of course this view may change when knockdowns come back....

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

One Dragon is not particularly scary, but I wonder what a well-coordinated lance of 100 kph mechs could do, and whether a similarly well-coordinated lance of 60 kph mechs would even stand a chance.

In my view, assaults and slow heavies are great front-line damage dealers, but even on these small maps, the line ends somewhere ... which is where the flankers go. One flanker - not so scary, three or four, focus firing on any front line assault mech's back for a few seconds, then fade back into cover ... strike again from another direction ...

Of course, the 140 kph scouts change the scenario ... and we're back to playing rock, paper, scissors again. Every mech has its place on the battlefield, including the Dragon.

[Teralitha]

Noobzorz, on 01 April 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

It's not terrible. What it is is obsolete.

If you're building a zoomy mech, just go with the cicada. If you're building a brawler, the CTF and CPLT are much better.

The only variant of Dragon that does something better than the CTF (other than novelty) is the 5N, and that's stupid.



Sorry, but no. It isn't. I wish it were.

http://i.imgur.com/QSDTlXN.jpg

All your doing is comparing the tonnages. But whatever.

Edited by Teralitha, 01 April 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[Das Wudone]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 01 April 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

One Dragon is not particularly scary, but I wonder what a well-coordinated lance of 100 kph mechs could do, and whether a similarly well-coordinated lance of 60 kph mechs would even stand a chance.

In my view, assaults and slow heavies are great front-line damage dealers, but even on these small maps, the line ends somewhere ... which is where the flankers go. One flanker - not so scary, three or four, focus firing on any front line assault mech's back for a few seconds, then fade back into cover ... strike again from another direction ...

Of course, the 140 kph scouts change the scenario ... and we're back to playing rock, paper, scissors again. Every mech has its place on the battlefield, including the Dragon.

there was a time where we had 4 really good dragon pilots in our team and we decimated them all 1 by 1 from their *****. goes around enemy team, all 4 alpha into the back of the 1st mech, next target, rinse and repeat.

[Noobzorz]

Teralitha, on 01 April 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

All your doing is comparing the tonnages. But whatever.

Nothing of the kind. How is that in any way a tonnage comparison? The niche the dragon is supposed to fill is filled better by other mechs.

Das Wudone, on 01 April 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

there was a time where we had 4 really good dragon pilots in our team and we decimated them all 1 by 1 from their *****. goes around enemy team, all 4 alpha into the back of the 1st mech, next target, rinse and repeat.

And I once dropped with a 4 man of spiders who must have been paid by the headshot, based on the way they played. Doesn't mean I'd want another 4 man of spiders again, or that it's an effective strategy.

Edited by Noobzorz, 01 April 2013 - 10:08 PM.