443 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

A few threads have popped up here recently discussing competitive play balancing and overall chassis balancing (such as 'Is every chassis viable for competitive play?'). The general consensus appears to be 'no'. I've seen a lot of players claim that the Dragon is a "trash chassis". I'd like to know why (I've never piloted a Dragon, aside from a few trial mechs a long time ago, so I don't have much insight).

Is it the hardpoints? Is it the way the hardpoints are distributed? Is it the size of the CT? Is it the Torso Twist?

Please be specific about what you think the problem is. I'd like to get discussion going about:

1. What the Dragon's problems are, and
2. What we can do to fix them.

I'd like to see all mechs have a place in competitive play. Variety is good. The point of this thread is to analyze the problems underlying balance issues, and see if we - the players - can find solutions to help level the playing field.

[Vassago Rain]

Big nose.
The guns are spread all over.
Worthless advantage that doesn't really play out, because catapults take XL 300, and carry more guns and jets.
Arm ballistics.
CT missiles in the nose.

[LordBraxton]

HUGE center torso wasnt as big of a deal but recent fixes to hit detection make them get cored mad easily

also, even though dragons move fast they usually carry about as much firepower as a medium and die even faster

that being said I still love the dragon and make it work well in PUG games, but taking it in an 8v8 handicaps my team

[Royalewithcheese]

Honorary medium.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 18 March 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

I have a theory that the role of a "fast flanker" might become more viable when we have 12v12 matches; just because a blob of 12 mechs would be as dangerous to itself as it would be to it's enemies, so it could behoove people to fight in actual lances.

Would that mean that the Dragon and Cicada would have a role that they alone excel at? Maybe. I hope so, but it also may be that light brawlers, 80kph Catapults, or fast Centurions still do it better.

Keep in mind the Centurion used to be considered a trash mech too. It got it's quirks, and not a whole lot changed, but the tryhards found a place for it in competitive play. It's considered better than the Hunchback now, and that was never the case before.

I am curious to see if the Dragon quirks are worthwhile like the Cent's were, or if they end up being largely ignored like the Cicada's.

[Trauglodyte]

The Dragon is a flanker which needs to use its speed as an advantage. Outside of Alpine Peaks and Caustic Valley, the other 3 maps are 2000m x 2000m which means there isn't enough room to move to take advantage of your speed. On top of that, the CT is pretty big which means you've got to work twice as hard to hide it. Beyond that, you're running a 60 ton platform that has three different weapon systems and maximizing all three is near impossible and prevents boating. As this game has been turned into being a master of brawling/taking damage, throwing LRMs, or jump sniping, a mech with no ECM that cannot do any of those three is pretty much substandard.

Sadly, the Dragon is a damned good mech. It just isn't in a position to use any of its strengths because the game doesn't support it.

[Roughneck45]

They are just bad for competitive play because they don't specialize enough. Speed is their main difference when compared to the other heavy mechs, but speed is usually utilized in the light and medium categories instead of sacrificing a heavy slot for it.

This is just for competitive play though.

For pugging, Dragons can be a ton of fun, but it takes skill to make them effective.

The Dragon does not need a fix because it fulfills its role quite well, its just a role that is not desired for competitive play.

Battlevalue or weightvalue or any balancing mechanic other than 1-1 weight class would help them quite a bit.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Erasus Magnus]

odd enough, dragons are the mechs i fear the most. whenever i see one comming at me, i scream like a little girl.
dunno, i regularily have a hard time against dragons.

my theory to this is, that the dragons train their pilots better than other mechs, because of their "sub- parness"...

you know? Like the ae86 trained takumi and stuff...

[Vassago Rain]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 18 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I have a theory that the role of a "fast flanker" might become more viable when we have 12v12 matches; just because a blob of 12 mechs would be as dangerous to itself as it would be to it's enemies, so it could behoove people to fight in actual lances.

Would that mean that the Dragon and Cicada would have a role that they alone excel at? Maybe. I hope so, but it also may be that light brawlers, 80kph Catapults, or fast Centurions still do it better.

Keep in mind the Centurion used to be considered a trash mech too. It got it's quirks, and not a whole lot changed, but the tryhards found a place for it in competitive play. It's considered better than the Hunchback now, and that was never the case before.

I am curious to see if the Dragon quirks are worthwhile like the Cent's were, or if they end up being largely ignored like the Cicada's.

We already have a much faster flanker in the catapult, that flies, and has firepower. The speed bonus might seem big, but the difference is basically that it takes you 4 less seconds to get out of enemy catapult 270 range.

[Roughneck45]

Erasus Magnus, on 18 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

my theory to this is, that the dragons train their pilots better than other mechs, because of their "sub- parness"...

Thats what I tell people.

Is the game too easy for you? Stop taking dual gauss, boated SRMs, or massed LRMs and start piloting a Dragon.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Biggest problem with the Dragon is the lay out of the hardpoints. The CT does not offer much space for missiles, and the ballisitcs are in the arm. I, personally, like arm mounted ballistics, but most people do not. If they ever do a "balance pass" on mechs I would like to see the Dragon's get a missile harpoint added to a torso, and possibly 1 additional laser hardpoint in a torso or an arm.

The additional hardpoints would be balnaced by the weight of the systems you could mount, it is hard to mount a lot of weapons and still maintain the speed of a Dragon.

[Ryllen Kriel]

Their profile makes them look like a fat woman in a moo-moo. And that gut makes a large target. I also am not a huge fan of where the weapons are placed amongst the variants.

I like the concept of a fast heavy mech for use as a flanker to stir up trouble, as some have suggested. It just never grew on me.

[Barghest Whelp]

You know, when I started playing there were certain mechs I owuld instantly fear. First it was the atlas, then the gauss kitty, then any variation of cataphract. Put it simple, they come and go as you encounter new variations and new tactics.

But after the flame/fang were released, I truly learned how to fear a dragon. Sure, a lot of people fail miserably at piloting this chassis, but the ones who know how gave me a very good reason to fear this mech. Sure, some of the weapon layouts are a bit messed up, but it's a heavy that can move @ 100kph. Used correctly it's lethal.

[armyof1]

I really like taking my Dragon out for a spin, but rarely can I match the result I get from taking my DDC instead. To do well with Dragons requires a lot of hard work and a willingness to disengage even from most 1 on 1 situations to find another unsuspecting target to get off a few shots at, run off and find another victim and so on. I would never claim it's a good mech, but it's fun when things go your way and you can stay out of focus from enemy fire.

Edited by armyof1, 18 March 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Gregory Owen]

Royalewithcheese, on 18 March 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Honorary medium.

completely agree, it is a medium mech.

[Deathlike]

When the LBX20 is made available, I think the Dragon would be a much better brawler than it currently is (which, at the moment is virtually non-existent).

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 18 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Would that mean that the Dragon and Cicada would have a role that they alone excel at? Maybe. I hope so, but it also may be that light brawlers, 80kph Catapults, or fast Centurions still do it better.

I am curious to see if the Dragon quirks are worthwhile like the Cent's were, or if they end up being largely ignored like the Cicada's.

The Cicada could be used an ECM UAC5 nuisance, but that's actually a horrible idea.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing to be ignored on the field, as long as you can contribute effectively, but most of the time the popular builds/mechs at the moment usually demand more of your attention to stop. It only takes one good build with a good pilot to even get remotely noticed by the rest...

The Dragon will be what it is... it needs more help.

[Cyclonite]

Arm mounted ballistics are terrible and you can't mount any missile launchers that are worth a damn.

[Butane9000]

It isn't terrible. Like Spiders they take a special kind of pilot to succeed.

[Tremendous Upside]

People have been calling the DRG a trash chassis since before I started playing back in CBT. It's a common perception of the mech, and with some of the loadouts you'll see people running - it's totally understandable. There are some TERRIBLE builds out there. That said, I've spent countless hours running them myself, and it's a mech that caters well to my style of play. To each their own I guess...

I won't bother stating what's already been said about the hardpoints. Your options will be limited with the dragon regardless what you pack onto it. They're not offensive powerhouses. But with that said, I've always felt that a DRG with a larger-than-stock engine is probably the most durable of all the heavy mechs. The things take an absolute beating... and if you can control your distances to targets and keep your opponents in front of you, they're just a royal pain in the rear to have to take out. They make for excellent flankers and are great for tearing through enemy formations to break things up and for closing down LRM-boats.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

We already have a much faster flanker in the catapult, that flies, and has firepower. The speed bonus might seem big, but the difference is basically that it takes you 4 less seconds to get out of enemy catapult 270 range.

That's true as long as SRMs are king of the meta. In my magical-fantasy-imagination land, that won't always be the case, and this game will have some semblance of balance someday (over the rainbow perhaps).

Naive, I know, but I can dream