73 replies to this topic

[PurpleNinja]

The only good stat would be win/loss ratio, but for this to work we need some sort of briefing before the match starts.

KD ratio favors people who wait till CT armor is gone to unleash alpha strike.
Damage done favors people who had a bad aim and are capable of removing the entire enemy armor before the kill shot.
Assists, spots, and role playing are completely twisted right now and serves little purpose.

[Commander Kobold]

K/D is about as usefull in MW:O as gamerscore is on the Xbox 360

[Hungus]

xhrit, on 19 March 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Inflicting massive damage is not the goal, destroying mechs is the goal. If you have a high damage score but low kill score then you need to work on two things.

/snip

So you are telling me if I hold my shots waiting for my allies to fire first so I can then last hit the enemy that will make me a better aim and better at the game? It is generally pretty easy to tell when a mech is about to be cored which is why I killsteal people whenever I get the chance. This doesnt make me better at the game.

EDIT: I just watched that video and found it rather humorous after reading your post where you say "First improve your aim. Where you land your shots is more important then actually landing shots." Yet in that video your accuracy is terrible, infact you seem to be just mashing/holding the alpha key quite often and just spamming machine guns (lol) everywhere.

If that was a video of you trying to support your point you failed miserably.

Edited by Hungus, 19 March 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[FunkyFritter]

W/L ratio is the only stat that you can judge skill on, although when measuring an individual you should only use solo queue games. Ultimately stats are very limited as people get better over time, the only way to know how good someone is would be to see them in action.

[Flitzomat]

I wouldn´t call it kill stealing.
When I am playing heavy or Assault I often come into the situation that the enemy is open in the back but in a good overall shape. If we now go in a brawl with similar speed you will not get to see his back if he is a decent pilot. So then you run in circles, both twisting and dumping large amounts of damage into each other. I am very happy if a light comes along, uses his speed to get in the others back and get the kill.
Vice Versa, when I am running around in my Cicada I look at the different targets before I engage close combat. As I cannot spend time in the middle of a brawl I pick out the one with the weakest spots i.e. no armour in parts. If I see the situation as described above I try to kill him from behind. But this is something of value for my team because a brawler can move on to the next target without wasting armour and ammo for a 1v1 fight (he might have won).
BTW: I think damage/kill would be a good stat as it shows if you know where to hit a mech most efficiently.

Edited by Flitzomat, 19 March 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Glory in the Highest]

KDR does mean a lot. It does not show "kill stealing" (only the bitter say that). More accurately, it indicates how often a pilot doesn't get himself killed.

All the stats need to be read in conjunction with each other. If you see a positive KDR and a negative WLR, you're probably looking at a bad teammate. If you're looking at a positive WLR but a negative KDR, you're probably looking at a bad pilot who does manage to get a few base caps.

If both KDR and WLR are negative, he's not doing very well at all.

If both KDR and WLR are positive, rock on.

EXP/match, although many pubstars swear by it, means very little because it is a flawed attempt to indicate a player's "contribution" (a la, spotting, capping, blowing off components) and rewards people going out of their way to do things that are somewhat useless.

I could go further into detail, but I just woke up and meh.

Edited by Glory, 19 March 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[GT Hawk]

The other night I did 3 drops in my raven with friends. First game I came out with 5 kills. My friend in a atles is on a point when he gets jumped by 2 mechs, hunch and a atles. I arrive and he is still alive and has given both mechs a beating. But he soon dies. Lucky for me he had can opened the atles so I take him out fast. The hunchback is already low on weapons so not a challenge. In comes in cicada who has taken some hits but is in ok shape still. This was a gun fight but I was able to take this guy out with some skill and luck. Jump into water after finishing the cap and join the furball. See a jenner I think and give chase, he is missing most armor and is running. so take a shot and he is down. No clue where last mech is so go to cap locations. So last guy turns up and we own most of map so hey why not run over just in time to shoot and steel my friends kill.

So of the 5 kills 1 was a pure steel, 3 where battered already, and only one was a real challenge. So 5 kills 0 deaths there. Is this realy me being that good or lucky. In my case just lucky. Sure it took skill but its a great example to show that K/D is not everything. People get lucky. I have been in another match and I really did earn 5 kills. But the ratios do not shoe how good you are.

Another example is a friend and myself both running ravens and got alpine 3 times in a row. All we did was cap. We odd get the odd run in with a strangler/capping mech and 2 vs 1 works for us. But we would then just run and cap. In 2 of the 3 matches we where the only mechs standing but because we owned 4 out of 5 points for most of the game the enemy could not stop the win (note can't wait for adjusted ticket for larger maps, its to short). We did our jobs and the k/d dose not show that

[Roland]

K/D may not be a perfect indicator of pilot skill, but it's most definitely an indicator of a lack thereof.

If your K/D is negative, you are a detriment to your team, without question.

[GT Hawk]

Roland, on 19 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

K/D may not be a perfect indicator of pilot skill, but it's most definitely an indicator of a lack thereof.

If your K/D is negative, you are a detriment to your team, without question.

o how little we know. Seen scouts who actually scout, they find the lrm boat targets and keep enemy in check. when I and friends started our K/D where all below 1/1. But we learned the game and got them up above 1/1. Our win/loss ratios are great but the k/d are not amazing. So again this statement of a negative k/d ratio showing a poor player is not 100% true. It can show a poor player, a new player, or someone who game style is to assist and no go for the kills.

Edited by GT Hawk, 19 March 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[Sifright]

Roland, on 19 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

K/D may not be a perfect indicator of pilot skill, but it's most definitely an indicator of a lack thereof.

If your K/D is negative, you are a detriment to your team, without question.

Every mech except my Treb-3C has a postive KDR.

totally with you, I couldn't get a 3C build I liked and at the time didn't have the money for an XL engine at the right size to 'go fast'

[Chazer]

Kill stealing, aka focus firing a target. A usually beneficial tactic in a team brawler game.

KDA is a stat employed by LoL in order to factor in the players who are in a supportive role(assists) versus the players who are in a threat role(kills).

Edited by Chazer, 19 March 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[katshing]

Roland, on 19 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

K/D may not be a perfect indicator of pilot skill, but it's most definitely an indicator of a lack thereof.

If your K/D is negative, you are a detriment to your team, without question.

So if i have 10/10 wins and 10000 damage done with 0 kills and 10 deaths, im bad?

[Roland]

GT Hawk, on 19 March 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

o how little we know. Seen scouts who actually scout, they find the lrm boat targets and keep enemy in check.

Bad players may think that playing various roles, like scouting, somehow implies a low K/D ratio. They are mistaken.
There is literally no role in the game that you play better by dying.

GT Hawk, on 19 March 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

So again this statement of a negative k/d ratio showing a poor player is not 100% true.

Yes, it really is true.

Quote

So if i have 10/10 wins and 10000 damage done with 0 kills and 10 deaths, im bad?

Yes, with those stats, you would be bad. That combination of stats would suggest that you were merely carried to victory by better players.

Doing damage is not how you win Mechwarrior. You win mechwarrior by killing mechs. When I kill a mech through its head, I'm only doing 35 damage or so.. but it's a hell of a lot more useful to the team than doing 500 damage spread all over that mech.

[Nonsense]

katshing, on 19 March 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

So if i have 10/10 wins and 10000 damage done with 0 kills and 10 deaths, im bad?

No, but 2 people with similar damage and one person with positive K:D and one with negative, I'm going to say the positive is better.

I mean, I have significantly positive K:D ratio on all of my mechs from Light to Assault (Though admittedly, I don't play lights as often because I can't carry the team in a light mech. Well, maybe the RVN-3L). I'm pretty sure I'm better than people who have negative K:D ratios because it's a stat that's averaged over time.

Maybe for your 10 game example your point is valid IF you're playing an LRM boat and doing lots of spread out damage, but I HIGHLY doubt that if you're doing 1,000 damage a match that you're going to continue to average zero kills unless you're TRYING not to get the killing blow. After 100 games when you have 100,000 damage, you're going to have loads of kills.

Edited by Nonsense, 19 March 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[silentD11]

FunkyFritter, on 19 March 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

W/L ratio is the only stat that you can judge skill on, although when measuring an individual you should only use solo queue games. Ultimately stats are very limited as people get better over time, the only way to know how good someone is would be to see them in action.

solo que games are no more indicative of individual skill than premades are. Because you're still fighting in a team game where focus firing and team actions have vastly more impact on a win or loss than any individual skill.

Short of having 1v1 duels in an arena, there will be no reliable metric for individual skill.

[Kazly]

Fought an awesome last night - our team was loosing. Took out his second side torso, saw he had no weapons, turned away to keep helping team (we ended up winning). If I'm fighting a mech, and they are down to a tag, no weapons, or 1sl .... I'll gladly leave him for the carrion feeders on my team to focus on taking out someone who does have all their weapons (And yes, I regularly target side torso's to drop large groups of weapons).

With that in mind, my KD is slightly positive, even after leveling up spiders and cicadas to master these past 2 weeks.

edit: I suppose that's situational though, because if someone's cored CT, of course I'll aim there.

Edited by Kazly, 19 March 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[katshing]

Roland, on 19 March 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yes, with those stats, you would be bad. That combination of stats would suggest that you were merely carried to victory by better players.

Doing damage is not how you win Mechwarrior. You win mechwarrior by killing mechs. When I kill a mech through its head, I'm only doing 35 damage or so.. but it's a hell of a lot more useful to the team than doing 500 damage spread all over that mech.

So if i have 10/10 wins and 340 damage done with 0 kills and 10 deaths, im bad?

My point is K/D is not skill in pre-made team or a pug. W/L is your measurement of skill in the long run.
Being able to communicate and lead or take orders from people you never played with takes skill

Edited by katshing, 19 March 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[Teralitha]

Rocdocta, on 18 March 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

I hear people saying that if your K/D ratio is not positive then you are a bad pilot. But then as I am piloting jenners soley in PUGs i just cant do enough damage to rack up the kills. Even in an assault mech i dont get many kills. i find i do alot of damage but then die horribly after being focused upon. What would be a better stat to guage effectiveness? it doesnt bother me as its a game that is great fun. Just wondering how seriously other people take their K/D ratio.

There was a time when the jenner was the most feared mech on the field when driven by skilled pilots. This was a time when knockdowns were still in the game. The only opponant the jenner had to fear was the cata A1 streak boat. Both Jenner and A1 streak boat have since been made obsolete by the raven 3L and ECM. If ECM were to be removed from the game, the Jenner and A1 streaks would likely make a comeback. Might not be #1 again, but would see more useage.

KDR does hold some weight. You can easily say that someone with a high KDR is just a last hitter, but truly good pilots will keep that KDR consistently high no matter how they play. If you have played 1000 matches and still have a high KDR, you can say its because of skill. Because a cherry picker only gets lucky once in awhile. So yes, if your terrible with getting consistent kills over a long period of time.... yes, you are average.

Edited by Teralitha, 19 March 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Roland]

katshing, on 19 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

So if i have 10/10 wins and 340 damage done with 0 kills and 10 deaths, im bad?

My point is K/D is not skill in pre-made team or a pug. W/L is your measurement of skill in the long run.
Being able to communicate and lead or take orders from people you never played with takes skill

Dude, you can tell yourself anything you want, but the reality is that if you are running a negative K/D, you are a detriment to your team.

The team would be winning MORE if they had someone who was actually killing mechs. You can imagine various stat combinations which might suggest otherwise, but in reality those combinations rarely occur in the real world. Folks who have negative K/D ratios don't tend to win most of their games, or if they do it's because they are being carried by other, better players.

Even in the imagined stats you presented there.. it would mean that you died in every single game you played, and never killed ANYTHING. And hell, you did essentially a trivial amount of damage. Looking at those stats, I would have to assume that you just lucked out and happened to be placed on teams of good players.

That's the thing, your W/L ratio isn't really a good indication of anything either (although over the long haul it will probably have some indication of your overall skill if you are pugging it), because it is a reflection of your TEAM's ability. There are tons of times where a team is absolutely carried by some small portion of it. When a team wins on kills, but the folks on the bottom of the scoreboard got less than 50 damage, the team won in spite of those players, not by virtue of them.

Certainly, some builds are better at getting the killing blow than others... but even in mechs that aren't heavy hitters, they also shouldn't be dying all the time. If you die every game, and never kill anything, you are doing something wrong.

I'm not saying this to be mean, or because I'm super awesome. I'm mediocre at best. But folks are fooling themselves if they think that they are secretly contributing in some way that is merely unreflected in the stats.. because, at the end of the day, what matters is whether you can kill enemy mechs.

[katshing]

Roland, on 19 March 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Dude, you can tell yourself anything you want, but the reality is that if you are running a negative K/D, you are a detriment to your team.

The team would be winning MORE if they had someone who was actually killing mechs. You can imagine various stat combinations which might suggest otherwise, but in reality those combinations rarely occur in the real world. Folks who have negative K/D ratios don't tend to win most of their games, or if they do it's because they are being carried by other, better players.

Even in the imagined stats you presented there.. it would mean that you died in every single game you played, and never killed ANYTHING. And hell, you did essentially a trivial amount of damage. Looking at those stats, I would have to assume that you just lucked out and happened to be placed on teams of good players.

That's the thing, your W/L ratio isn't really a good indication of anything either (although over the long haul it will probably have some indication of your overall skill if you are pugging it), because it is a reflection of your TEAM's ability. There are tons of times where a team is absolutely carried by some small portion of it. When a team wins on kills, but the folks on the bottom of the scoreboard got less than 50 damage, the team won in spite of those players, not by virtue of them.

Certainly, some builds are better at getting the killing blow than others... but even in mechs that aren't heavy hitters, they also shouldn't be dying all the time. If you die every game, and never kill anything, you are doing something wrong.

I'm not saying this to be mean, or because I'm super awesome. I'm mediocre at best. But folks are fooling themselves if they think that they are secretly contributing in some way that is merely unreflected in the stats.. because, at the end of the day, what matters is whether you can kill enemy mechs.

No, with the current rules of this game what matters in the end is if you win or not nothing else.
thats why you get more c-bills for an assist then a kill (i think)
If i want to farm c-bills i will get a friend and make sure i do all the damage needed for the kill -1 and have my friend take the kill

Edited by katshing, 19 March 2013 - 07:12 AM.