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Why Coolant Flush Is Broken


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#61 PropagandaWar

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostMrPenguin, on 19 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

You seem like the kind of person who complains about games like skyrim where you can carry around dozens of weapons with out any of them showing...

"cough" Bag of holding "cough"

Wait! Let me access that LRM Case in my foot! Yeah logic and video games don't need to go hand and hand.

#62 CutterWolf

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:54 PM

View PostSyllogy, on 19 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:


The Burden of Proof is on the Accuser.

You are the Accuser. You must provide Proof. Not some ethereal misunderstanding of how you think things should work.



I already posted the proof in my opening post so here it is again in case you missed it. Source BattleTechWiki:

""Heat sinks, which sharing names with real world passive radiators found in computers, are actually complete heat pumps, not "true" heat sinks in the engineering sense. They serve as a BattleMech's means of protecting itself from internal damage caused by heat, as most 'Mechs' weapons easily cause enough heat to fry the machine's own electronics or melt its plastic muscles, the myomers that make 'Mechs possible.
Heat sinks operate by collecting heat with coolant distributed to heat sources (weapons, engines, myomers, electronics, etc.) and delivering that to a radiator. Because a BattleMech may operate in environments considerably hotter than the interior of the 'Mech, the system includes a heat pump to "force" the heat out of the 'Mech by elevating the temperature of the coolant in some reversible fashion. (The vapor-compression heat pump of home air conditioners is a typical example, but 31st Century BattleMechs may make use of more exotic heat pumps.)
Note that if the heat sinks were true heat sinks or simple combustion engine radiators, a BattleMech operating in a hot environment would find the exterior heat being driven into the BattleMech rather than having internal heat rejected.
BattleMechs generally have two types of heat sinks: those mounted in the fusion engine and those mounted elsewhere on the chassis. The chassis-mounted heat sinks perform as described above, while the engine-mounted heat sinks constitute a "regenerative cooling" system that scavenges excess heat for power.
Heat sinks are made of a number of materials. Traditional heat sinks, the so-called single strength heat sinks, typically use radiators made of very thermally conductive oriented graphite (which may have up to five times the thermal conductivity of copper). Double heat sinks have largely replaced normal heat sinks. They dissipate twice as much heat for the same tonnage, but take up more space to operate effectively because of their use of a crystalline polymer. This polymer, similar to the engine shielding of XL fusion engines, is not as thermally conductive as graphite but significantly lighter and more durable, allowing it to be formed into a larger radiator for the same mass.
The actual coolant circulating in the heat sink varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and military to military. Heavy oils (hydrocarbon and silicone) are favored for their high boiling points and thus may be contained by low pressure tubing. Water-based coolants, typically modified with glycols, have nearly unbeatable heat capacities and are readily available for resupply. Freons work very effectively with the heat pumps in heat sinks. Some gases, like helium, also find use in heat sinks. Contrary to what might be thought, liquid nitrogen is a very poor coolant - it has very little heat capacity and boils far too easily.
Despite the heat pump, heat sinks are affected by the surrounding environment as a matter of basic thermodynamics - it takes less work to dump heat into a cold environment than a hot one, and water is a better coolant than air. Many 'Mechs on desert worlds often have to be refitted for the different conditions, or risk overheating from the compounded effects of weapons-fire and the environment. Conversely, heat sinks operating in cold regions and worlds dissipate heat much more effectively, as the environment's natively-cold temperature helps cool the BattleMech by default. This often leads to many garrisons on ice-worlds using a larger number of energy weapons, as they don't have to worry about heat as much. A 'Mech submerged in water, however, is often the one with the most efficient heat sinks as they can pump dense water (with its enormous heat capacity) over the heat sink radiators instead of low density air. (BattleTechWiki)""

Edited by CutterWolf, 19 March 2013 - 06:54 PM.


#63 TB Freelancer

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:07 PM

View PostAgent of Change, on 19 March 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:


He's gonna play one round without actually even equipping it assume the people who rolled him had it and repost this thread, solving nothing.



What more is there to say? Other than that there's simply no arguing with one who's opinions are based on purely on beliefs that are impervious to facts.

#64 mullet steve

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostCutterWolf, on 19 March 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:



What? The concept it self is broken so "yes" I can legitimately claim its broken as I have proven


now I take a little offence at the language used here.. you have a fine theory about a hypothetical system in a fictional game of future robots jocks... what you have not done is prove anything.. I would await some word from PGI on how their fictional coolant flush works before you start making claims and even better wait until they have installed it into the game... That'd be great, then we can have a fiddle around and guess in a educated manner as to how PGI envisioned it working from evidence we can then extrapolate some meaning, Without evidence you have a theory not proof... like the theory of evolution.. It's great and make sence and is the most convincing answer to a lot of questions but has not yet been proven consistantly as that would take many many centuries of study as one species of animal evolves into several different species due to natural selection.....

#65 Agent of Change

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

After extensive testing it's fine. the effect is so limited and the cost is so negligible that any real objections from a mechanics standpoint are pretty silly.

#66 mullet steve

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

Now you've got a quote from a wiki that can be edited by anyone right??? because that's clear academia right there, there's no way that could ever be worng or miss-informed...

have you thought that maybe the coolant flush is not designed to release coolant from the system and is instead a tank of coolant material that is aplied to the heat sink to make it more efficient temporarily as liquids are denser and therefore more efficient coolants....."A 'Mech submerged in water, however, is often the one with the most efficient heat sinks as they can pump dense water (with its enormous heat capacity) over the heat sink radiators instead of low density air. (BattleTechWiki)""
It'd be pretty easy to rig up a holding tank and some hoses to spray water/oil/coolant onto the heatsink really....

#67 EgoSlayer

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostCutterWolf, on 19 March 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:



I already posted the proof in my opening post so here it is again in case you missed it. Source BattleTechWiki:

<bunch of text that is meaningless in a game where physics doesn't apply>



OK, lets assume that we need to come up with some way that obeys the laws of physics to make this work.
1) Mechs have a 'main' coolant system, and a secondary system. Secondary system has 10% of the capacity of the main system and is kept at ambient temps, and kept out of the main system by two valves.
Mech gets hot - activate secondary loop - adds 10% more coolant to the system at a temp hundreds of degrees lower than in main loop, then closes the loop after pumps have moved a volume of 10%. Lowers main system temp, and creates new reserve.

Sure, its not disposable, and why not just use all that volume to begin with and have a higher threshold?

2) Make use of the endothermic effects of compressed gasses. Cylinders with gasses compressed to 1000+ bar are mounted next to key heat sink radiators. Mech getting hot, release the cylinders rapidly onto the radiators through passages in the radiators. Gas goes from high pressure to ambient and absorbs heat from the radiators in the process, improving their efficiency.

Probably won't work well in high pressure planets, and vacuum poses problems as well.

3) Liquefied gas dumped/misted on radiators. Combination of extreme low temps with endothermic reaction going from liquid back to gas absorbs huge amount of heat from the radiators.

Sill probably not as effective in vacuum.

4) Dry Ice - frozen C02 placed directly on the radiators - similar effect as #3.

Etc

Or, Realize it's a game mechanic that has no basis in reality and move on.

#68 CutterWolf

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:47 PM

View PostEgoSlayer, on 19 March 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:


OK, lets assume that we need to come up with some way that obeys the laws of physics to make this work.
1) Mechs have a 'main' coolant system, and a secondary system. Secondary system has 10% of the capacity of the main system and is kept at ambient temps, and kept out of the main system by two valves.
Mech gets hot - activate secondary loop - adds 10% more coolant to the system at a temp hundreds of degrees lower than in main loop, then closes the loop after pumps have moved a volume of 10%. Lowers main system temp, and creates new reserve.

Sure, its not disposable, and why not just use all that volume to begin with and have a higher threshold?

2) Make use of the endothermic effects of compressed gasses. Cylinders with gasses compressed to 1000+ bar are mounted next to key heat sink radiators. Mech getting hot, release the cylinders rapidly onto the radiators through passages in the radiators. Gas goes from high pressure to ambient and absorbs heat from the radiators in the process, improving their efficiency.

Probably won't work well in high pressure planets, and vacuum poses problems as well.

3) Liquefied gas dumped/misted on radiators. Combination of extreme low temps with endothermic reaction going from liquid back to gas absorbs huge amount of heat from the radiators.

Sill probably not as effective in vacuum.

4) Dry Ice - frozen C02 placed directly on the radiators - similar effect as #3.

Etc

Or, Realize it's a game mechanic that has no basis in reality and move on.



Try reading, this is how Battletech states it works not me.

#69 PANZERBUNNY

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:53 PM

It's interesting how they chose the most controversial consumable possible for the first round of items.

More than likely this was done on purpose to see what they can get away with. If this passes muster, be prepared for banana peels and red turtle shells in the coming months. *Embraces the tinfoil hat*

*Que tragic jaugh track*

#70 PropagandaWar

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:00 AM

I think I used it twice in my med. Its ok. Nothing terrible or game changing.





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