71 replies to this topic

[Pale Jackal]

Unless they nerfed the K2 so people would want to play the JagerMech, I would have nerfed the K2 if it was still an issue after the JagerMech was released.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Red squirrel, on 19 March 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Of course it does not NEED a torso twist nerf.
But they probably found that it is necessary in order to balance the 65 t Cat against the 65 t Jager.

you mean the 4srm/2erppc jäger? yea they sure needed to balance the cat to that...

Pale Jackal, on 19 March 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

so people would want to play the JagerMech,

*coughs*

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 19 March 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[Pale Jackal]

Well, I think people would play the JagerMech regardless of the K2 nerf. Maybe more people would buy the JagerMech, though. I think even without the nerf, the JagerMech would have a unique role.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 19 March 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Dauphni]

The QQing in this thread is unbelievable. The torso twist on the C1 is literally better than it was until four short weeks ago. Yet even veteran players are crying like they just took away all of their toys. Get a grip on reality, people!

[armyof1]

Pale Jackal, on 19 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

You know what else can stay at 180m with LRMs? A TBT with an XL300 and an LRM20 (or maybe even 2 LRM15s.) Besides, if your 'mech goes approximately 70kph, you'd be able to bridge the gap (since it's not a full 180 torso twist).... and if you're piloting a sub-70kph 'mech with no long range weapons, you deserve what you get.

I'm pretty sure the TBT has nowhere as much armor or spare weight for missiles as the Catapult does.

[darkfall13]

Didn't you read the patch notes it's not a nerf it's a "quirk" yeah like the Awesome got way back when... yeah... just like that...

Why my K2?! It didn't do nuttin' wrong to nobody. It just wanted to PPC people in the face! Is that too much to ask!?

Edited by darkfall13, 19 March 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Barghest Whelp]

Pale Jackal, on 19 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

It's not a bad 'mech, but it didn't need a nerf. If I want a slow, heavy fire support platform I'd pilot a Stalker. If I want a speedy harasser, I'd pilot a TBT 5J. The 5J would have less fire power at range, but it'd have more close in fire power and it'd be quicker. The amazing torso twist is the one thing the C1 had in its favor.

That's one way of looking at it.

The way I see it, the C1 has 15 extra tons to play with, more armour, and slightly less speed. I've fitted mine with 2xERPPC, 2xMPL, 2xSRM6+A, and it really works for me. I seriously never found a need to use the insane torso twist, but then again, I'm used to piloting normal mechs, with normal torso twist.

All I can say is, maybe you should try some different configurations on your mech to see if you can find something that works for you, instead of just copying the regular cookie cutter setups. In the end, if you can't come up with something to make the chassis useful, then sell it for something else.

That's what I do. Bought an Atlas, couldn't find a setup that worked for me, sold it. Not a bad chassis, but just not right for me. Bought a Dragon, same problem. Bought a catapult, and then the cataphract was released. Phracts seem to be just about right for me.

Can't wait for the Orion to be released.

[Elizander]

I feel like the C1 did not need the nerf. I never saw anyone complain about the C1.

[Karl Streiger]

Never had problems with the C1 Catapult...only with the 3 other ones.
So while not a Catapult user you get my No... the C1 catapult should have deserved better

[N0ni]

Didn't care for the nerf, even though it wasn't needed. I can still poptart with ER PPCs and twist just fine.

[OpCentar]

I'm very disappointed by this C1 nerf.

The only catapult which was an issue was the A1, instead of dealing with SRM boating they went and nerfed the entire mech line.

This will not stop the SplatCat, it's still being (ab)used and will continue to do so until there is another 80+kph mech that can boat 6x+ SRMs. Or until someone at PGI realizes the true problem.

[Jetfire]

The Splatcat is the problem, primarily due to the map sizes and their site lines, Cat's should have high torso twist. I mean their design should logically be capable of full 180 twist from the looks of it. A support mech should run from battle while returning fire, it is a support mech, not fixed missile turret system.

[Kaspirikay]

Op is obviously biased

[MustrumRidcully]

Karl Streiger, on 20 March 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Never had problems with the C1 Catapult...only with the 3 other ones.
So while not a Catapult user you get my No... the C1 catapult should have deserved better

But why would any of these mechs have such a huge torso twist range?

Lore-wise, they are (in)direct fire support mech that operate at range. They don't generally need a large field of fire, because the enemy is far away from them and can't move that fast.
The Jagermech (at least in some variants) migh tdeserve a large torso twist range, because it's also an "anti-air" mech, and he must track fast moving planes, not slow moving mechs.

Mechanic-wise - if you want a great field of fire, you want a mech with upper and lower arm actuators and install your weapons there. You pay this with a crit slot per arm.

So neither the rules nor the mechanics really sugest that the Catapult would have an exceptional twist range.

So, for what reason do they actually need that twist range? I can think of only one thing right now - the Jagermech gets 8 hard points, all Catapults have only 6. That seems actually unfair. Stil, the Catapult still has more twist range than the Jagermech, so one could very well argue it still has an advantage.

If I were to tweak things; I might do this:
K2: Give it 2 additional energy hard points in the arms. That's supposed to be its main weapon there, it should have the option of putting something else there. We might eventually see more energy uses of the K2 with that, too.
A1: Give it an ECM hard point. Of course, that assumes that at some point, ECM and Streaks still get balanced... Otherwise.. Two AMS and 2 more max jump jets perhaps?
C1: Give this mech extra torso twist range. It's the only Catapult that is also equipped with a sizable range of short range weapons (4 medium lasers). It has a good "story" reason for a better twist range.
C4: Give it two extra missile hard points. (Same as the A1 now.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 20 March 2013 - 02:57 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 March 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

A1: Give it an ECM hard point. Of course, that assumes that at some point, ECM and Streaks still get balanced... Otherwise.. Two AMS and 2 more max jump jets perhaps?

Funny i thought the same...with SRM fixed...and with fixed i mean: spread....the A1 should become more mobile as any other Catapult... per definition a fast response artillery mech...while the C4 should stay the heavy response artillery mech.

But again we have the intended role of a Mech... and again it wont chance anything.

[Pale Jackal]

Kaspirikay, on 20 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Op is obviously biased

I am. However, if there was constant QQing about the C1 like there was about the A1 or K2, I would be OK with the nerf. Believe it or not, I like game balance too. However, this would be like nerfing the Cataphract 4X just because the 3D was too good at pop-tarting. The 4X has its uses, but it's not over-powered.

[The Cheese]

I don't mind the nerf, but I'd have preferred that it wasn't universally nerfed across the board and then have it called a quirk. (K2s don't count. They might as well not even be a Catapult.) I was under the impression that quirks were supposed to be different between variants.

Edited by The Cheese, 20 March 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[KickFeather]

Played all my Cats in quite a few games last night. Didn't hurt my gameplay at all. Still smashed face. So I voted I don't care.

[Commander Kobold]

Uite Dauphni, on 19 March 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

The QQing in this thread is unbelievable. The torso twist on the C1 is literally better than it was until four short weeks ago. Yet even veteran players are crying like they just took away all of their toys. Get a grip on reality, people!

its not better it's exactly the same (also on the C4 and A1)

[Pale Jackal]

Barghest Whelp, on 20 March 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

That's one way of looking at it.

The way I see it, the C1 has 15 extra tons to play with, more armour, and slightly less speed. I've fitted mine with 2xERPPC, 2xMPL, 2xSRM6+A, and it really works for me. I seriously never found a need to use the insane torso twist, but then again, I'm used to piloting normal mechs, with normal torso twist.

Slightly less speed? The TBT can go about 20 kph (or 25%) faster, since if you upgrade the engine above a 300XL, it's very tonnage inefficient. Given that LRMs absolutely do not work within 180m, I think an advantage in speed is pretty important.

I have experimented with many configurations, and I have used one similar to yours, 2 ERLL, 2 ML, 2 SRM6. I have used 2 ERPPC, 2 ML ; I have used 2 SSRM2 2 LL 2 ML ; I have used 2 LRM5 2 LL 2 ML ; I have used 2 SRM6 4 Mpulse. I used 2 PPC, 2 ML in closed beta before DHS were released.

You mention that you do not use the torso twist, but with your 2 ERPPC configuration, you really should be. Any time you have the advantage in terms of ranged weaponry, your C1 should be running away and hammering them with ERPPCs.