91 replies to this topic

[Ronin Cahill]

I think i sucks, i have enjoyed my cats because of their abilities. now i have wasted a fair bit of cash on mine as they dont perform the way they did when i bought them..which was the reason for me buying them in the first place.. I would like a refund.
Ronin

[Dustein]

My feed back follows after some cosponsoring evidence:

For a few patches now 'Mech variants have been receiving Quirks to "Make them feel more unique" here are some examples:

The Awesome (TUNING!)

PATCH: 1.2.182 said:

Mech Tuning

- The AWS-8Q, AWS-8R, AWS-8T, and AWS-8V had their max engine rating increased from 290 to 300
- All variants of the Awesome had their torso twist angles increased from 90 to 100 degrees
- All variants of the Awesome had the speed of their torso movements (both vertical and horizontal) increased by 10%
- All variants of the Awesome except for Pretty Baby had their turning rate decreased by 5%
- Pretty Baby had its turning rate increased by 5%
- Pretty Baby’s deceleration rate was decreased by 1/3 (it takes longer to slow down)

The Centurion (QUIRKS)

PATCH: 1.2.190 said:

Centurion Variant Quirks

- Increased CN9-A and CN9-AL max engine to 275 (from 260).
- Increased CN9-YLW max engine to 300 (from 280).
- Increased CN9-A and CN9-AL torso twist angle to 100 (from 90).
- Decreased CN9-A, CN9-AL, and CN9-D max horizontal arm angle to 35 (from 40).
- Increased CN9-A and CN9-AL turning rate by 10%.
- Increased CN9-YLW turning rate by 5%.
- Decreased acceleration rate of all Centurions by 10%.
- Increased the deceleration rate of the CN9-A, CN9-AL, and CN9-D by 10%.

The Cicada (QUIRKS) -

PATCH: 1.2.197 said:

Cicada Variant Quirks

- CDA-2A: Received an additional module slot (this gives it 2 now, like the other variants). Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Torso movement speed increased by 10%. Turning rate increased by 5%.
- CDA-2B: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Arm movement speed increased by 22%. Turning rate increased by 5%.
- CDA-3C: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Turning rate increased by 10%.
- CDA-3M: Turning rate decreased by 5%. Acceleration decreased by 10%.
- CDA-X5: Torso twist angle increased by 5 degrees to each side. Turning rate increased by 10%.

And now we get to the current patch for the Catapults TUNING/NERF -

PATCH: 1.2.204 said:

Catapult Variant Quirks

- The CPLT-A1, CPLT-C1, and CPLT-C4 have had their torso twist angle reduced from 140 to 120.
- The CPLT-A1, CPLT-C1, and CPLT-C4 have had their arm pitch angle reduced from 45 to 35.
- The CPLT-K2 has had its torso twist angle reduced from 140 to 110.

These are not quirks. They are a straight up NERF!
Now if you (the Devs) believe a balance fix was needed then kudos to you.

But plz call a spade a spade. This is a NERF not added Quirks!

That being said some added Dev feed back on WHY the balance fix was needed / what thinking was behind it (because currently it feels like it was just to make the Jaeger Mech a more appealing option).

The added twist was about the only thing keeping my LRM CPLT-C1F alive when harassed by lights and reducing the CPLT-K2 I find makes it even less viable to use PPC's in the arms. Easier to just use Duel Gauss or Duel AC/20 in the Torso of the K2 or retire my C1F and just use an A1 with 6xSRM6.

~Edit: added line to make more clear that CPLT change is more in line with Mech Tuning than added Quirks~

Edited by Dustein, 19 March 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Aesthetech]

This change was absolutely because of gausscats, I feel. Still incredibly unbalanced.

Note the change to the K2: on the whole, arm mobility is improved, and twist mobility is quite heavily nerfed. This is an attempt to encourage more use of the K2 for its arm weapons and less RT/LT big guns.

Quite frankly, it's not going to work. The real issue is gauss rifles, not any particular breed of Catapult. They are and have been overpowered for a very long time. Pretty much no heat (with the roughly 3x fire rates, this makes them exponentially effective vs higher heat weapons), big damage, long range, and they removed the min range without adding anything to compensate. On top of that, they get extra ammo. Unfortunately, some dev seems to have a hard-on for them and they've been pretty much nerf immune since well before open beta.

Most any other cat is reliant on its huge ears for its damage, and as such I don't mind their exceptional twisting. Very easy to clip their firepower very quickly.

[Dustein]

Aposiopesis, on 19 March 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Note the change to the K2: on the whole, arm mobility is improved

this part is FALSE.
K2 arms have 0° Horizontal movement and no change to vertical movement. The reduction in the Torso Horizontal movement limits arm use thus making arm mounted weapons harder to aim at extreme angles and fast moving targets.

Also it seems that despite the reduced twist distance it takes just as long to reach the 110° mark as it did the 140°

Rest of your point I agree with, this will actually INCREASE Gauss / AC20 use in the K2 IMO.

[Aesthetech]

Dustein, on 19 March 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

this part is FALSE.
K2 arms have 0° Horizontal movement and no change to vertical movement. The reduction in the Torso Horizontal movement limits arm use thus making arm mounted weapons harder to aim at extreme angles and fast moving targets.

Also it seems that despite the reduced twist distance it takes just as long to reach the 110° mark as it did the 140°

Rest of your point I agree with, this will actually INCREASE Gauss / AC20 use in the K2 IMO.

Sorry, should have been a little more clear in my post. What I meant is that the arm mobility of the K2 is improved in comparison to the other Catapult variants (because the others were nerfed).

I have no problem with the AC/20 Catapult. AC/20 is an appropriately balanced weapon system. It's short ranged, takes up a ton of space very much limiting where/how it can be stored, has ammo issues. The size of the AC/20 means you can't take an XL, which means a slow mech to make it all fit in the Catapult. If you get killed by an AC/20 Cat, either you were careless or the other guy is both a good shot and a ninja.

Gauss is small enough that you can fit an XL with them, resulting in a much faster mech (or even if you don't take XL, you have more internal room to allow for things like ES/etc which can ultimately result in larger engine size).

Comparing the AC/20 and gauss straight up, gauss..

• Has more ammo
  
• Is lighter or equal tonnage when taking into account the weapon + an appropriate amount of ammo compared to the AC/20
  
• Uses less crit space than the AC/20, even moreso given that gauss needs less crit slots to have an appropriate amount of ammo.
  
• Is a small enough weapon system that it can fit in the arm of pretty much any ballistic arm mech, or with an XL engine in a side torso.
  
• Has faster projectile speed than the AC/20
  
• Has waaaaay less heat than the AC/20 (virtually non-existent).
  
• Does 3/4 the damage of the AC/20 at more than 2x the range.
  
• Are less explosive than AC/20 ammo.
  
• Is way easier to damage than an AC/20, but this is largely negated due to speed/weight/location/range discrepancies between the two weapon systems.

Edited by Aposiopesis, 19 March 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[kiltymonroe]

The C4 and C1 didn't need it. The A1, ehh.

[Torarild]

I think it is a great change, Cat needed a bit of rebalance.
Just think on the huge number of catapults in any given fight, it is absurd considering how long that mech has been in the game, way more popular than other heavies. This is not random, it is because they were (slightly) unbalanced.
I wish they had thought up some more creative additions to these quirks than ONLY negative ones though.
For example: 5% longer sensor range, or a few other little tidbits to make up for the brawler capability nerfing, making it more interesting instead of just worse.

[Sudden Reversal]

If these were quirks and not straight up nerfs across the board I would be a happy man.

The Cats were my main chassis and having differences in how they operated between mechs would have added more complexity and enjoyment to the game.

But blanket nerfs to all of them and their viability in the field has basically made me want to put them on the scrap heap. I certainly will no longer be dropping in them. That is a ton of experience and c-bills in upgrades spent that is going to go to waste. A bitter taste in the mouth indeed.

Please consider modifying these nerfs to be actual quirks instead?!

Nothing like a swift kick in the nuts to your loyal players to turn them away.

[Fooooo]

Theevenger, on 19 March 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

You're exactly right. This is why the US Army currently does not have even a single vehicle with a turret that swings a full 360 degrees.

Sarcasm aside, your right........however they dont have one that walks on 2 feet........

They have very stable ships, tanks and dug in ground turrets, which are designed to take the forces from firing, much like a mech probably would be if it were ever made to work tbh.

Still, 360 degree torso twist imo is unbalanced for the game. Any mech that can turn almost 180 on the torso has a huge advantage over every other mech. (only something like a spider would be balanced with 360...at least imo)

The cat needed a twist nerf imo, I don't think it went far enough tbh, and a speed nerf.

[Rallenkov]

As long as we are in Beta there is no such thing as a Nerf

The end

Edited by Rallenkov, 20 March 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Genewen, on 19 March 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

This is something that has always boggled me: why not? I never understood why there is that silly concept of only limited torso twist. Any decent engineer would make the weapon platform have a 360° turn. I find it awkward that BattleTech only allows their oh-so-mighty weapon systems such stupid specs.

Ninety. Meter. Range. Laser.

Sudden Reversal, on 19 March 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

But blanket nerfs to all of them and their viability in the field has basically made me want to put them on the scrap heap. I certainly will no longer be dropping in them. That is a ton of experience and c-bills in upgrades spent that is going to go to waste. A bitter taste in the mouth indeed.

Please consider modifying these nerfs to be actual quirks instead?!

You do realise that what has actually happened is that the Catapult no longer has an arbitrary and unnecessary advantage over every other mech with the same bodyform? The torso twist was out of whack with similar models like the Jenner, Raven, Cicada, Stalker, etc and it didn't need to be. This isn't a nerf, it's normalisation.

[DisasterTheory]

Senger, on 19 March 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

i can understand a bit of a nerf on the A1, but why are my C4, C1, and K2 all literally broken? I know about the torso twist being reduced in the recent patch, which is frustratingly annoying (and unneccessary) but it said nothing about twist speed. Now the torso moves so much slower than the camera that whenever i try to turn from one side to the other it bugs and i get a view of the headless pilot and inside-out geometry of the back of my mech, and all my catapults did this. it has literally made them unusable for anything but extremely long range support, not to mention that the torso twist was just about the only thing that let the catapult defend itself effectively at any kind of close range

This is totally unacceptable and will more than likely run a lot of players off unless its fixed soon. The quirk was for angle.. NOT speed... yet I see K2's twisting the same distance as before but far slower... I think someone got their "P's & Q's" confused here. The K2 now has the twist speed (with elite unlocked) of an assault... which is broken asfar as I'm concerned and smells of lite mech lagjock love to me.

[Teralitha]

ego1607, on 19 March 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Second that.
Those are not quirks, That is not even nerfing, That's just making the chasis broken for any kind of dynamic playstyle. Now you can just sit back and snipe or throw rockets without moving much :/

Have you not played any other mech? You just described how life is for all other mech types, except lights. Welcome to being normal.


But, personally I think they should have just increased the agility of all other mechs and left cata alone.

Edited by Teralitha, 20 March 2013 - 01:23 AM.

[Aesthetech]

Rallenkov, on 20 March 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

As long as we are in Beta there is no such thing as a Nerf

The end

We haven't been in Beta for a few months. The game is released. Access is open. Users can pay for features, and pay based upon expectations of features.

It's just a game that was released very incomplete, and like all MMOs it's undergoing constant development.

[kiltymonroe]

Also, if the goal of this whole variant quirks scheme is to give each variant its own little unique handling perk, then using it to just apply the same nerf to all the variants of a chassis is a failure to meet that concept. Just sayin'.

[ego1607]

Teralitha, on 20 March 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Have you not played any other mech? You just described how life is for all other mech types, except lights. Welcome to being normal.


But, personally I think they should have just increased the agility of all other mechs and left cata alone.

Yes I have, and I never felt cats being too good. .

[warp103]

Gaan Cathal, on 20 March 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

Ninety. Meter. Range. Laser.

[/size]

You do realise that what has actually happened is that the Catapult no longer has an arbitrary and unnecessary advantage over every other mech with the same bodyform? The torso twist was out of whack with similar models like the Jenner, Raven, Cicada, Stalker, etc and it didn't need to be. This isn't a nerf, it's normalisation.

stop stop you going to make me crack a rib laughing,Jenner, Raven, Cicada speed of 126+ and stalker now has a faster turn speed.that not normal that a doublenerf bat to the nutz. Again any mech that move over 90 kph the cat can no longer track. SO you just made cat users have two choices now. boat or ask for a refund of mech and skill. For non boater of the c1 and k2 and c4 we just got bent.

Edited by warp103, 20 March 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Abivard, on 19 March 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

besides, who would buy the new mech if that catapult wasn't nerfed like it was?

you honestly ask that? there is a variant that makes the catapult "butterbee" unnescessary as a hero variant... 4srms/lrms + 2 large energy slots is exactly the mix of c1 and c4 that was missing and makes both cats meh...ít´s even the same layout (arm mounted missles + sidetorso energies)

both chassis are fragile in the center/ head region, all that is left for the cat IS it´s mobility (lets keep the JJ´s aside, they are no true advantage in a catapult)

warp103, on 20 March 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

and stalker now has a faster turn speed.that not normal that a doublenerf bat to the nutz.

especially since the slow behaviour and the small torso twist was the only way to NOT make the stalker an unstoppable killermachine... it´s THE weapon platform right now... the coolant sh++ is only a bonus to that

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 20 March 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[TerebNeerg]

If they left the turn time the same while decreasing the maximum angle, the twist rate would decrease.

[Joker Two]

If PGI wants to blanket nerf torso twist angles on all Catapults, that's fine. I think the design's torso twist is a good defining feature, but it is a bit excessive.

If they accidentally decrease twist speed in the process, that's annoying, but if it gets fixed, then whatever.

If they intentionally decreased twist speed in the process, I'm not too happy. That hurts the stock -C1 a lot, and balanced -C1 and -C4 builds suffer too. It doesn't hurt sniper builds that much, whether they be -K2's with ballistics or -C1's with PPCs. It probably hurts -A1 SRM builds, but my guess is not that much, since they only need to hold their fire on target.

The fact that they applied blanket nerfs to all missile chassis equally, while calling it a "quirk", is really sad though. Their stated goal for the quirks was to differentiate between chassis variants, which these manifestly did not do (with the sole exception of the -K2, which is already basically a separate 'Mech).