62 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

SMDMadCow, on 23 April 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

No need to make stuff up, there's already rules for aiming.

But the existing rules are an addon that significantly changes balance considerations that went into the original design of mech, armour ratios and weapon mechanics.

There is one thing to have a rule to "simulate" something. There is another thing to have a rule that also makes it work smoothly and balanced in gameplay.

[SMDMadCow]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 April 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

But the existing rules are an addon that significantly changes balance considerations that went into the original design of mech, armour ratios and weapon mechanics.

There is one thing to have a rule to "simulate" something. There is another thing to have a rule that also makes it work smoothly and balanced in gameplay.

How do the aiming rules change balance? With or without a TC? With or without arm stabilising or pulse lasers?
They dont. You still have to hit, you then have to determine if you hit where you wanted. If not, then damage is randomly allocated per the usual. It doesnt sound like you've even read the aiming rules because you should know the penalty for aiming is pretty high.

Edited by SMDMadCow, 24 April 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[SMDMadCow]

Karl Streiger, on 23 April 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Generally you are right. There are rules that can "simulate" aiming.
There are rules that give you a better modificator the longer you aim (come form Duell rules - and didn't really work in larger size battles...because 3 rounds not moving?)
Than there were rules for Called Shots (left, right, high, low) But they increased the cance to miss, too.

With what I known from the lore - aiming means that the pilot does manuell convergence calculations eg.. like Dan Allard did with his Wolfhound killing the Archer of Kell while those had "phantom" skill enabled.
So you can explain how...a aimed shot can miss completely.

On the other hand...a experienced pilot would have a macro or the knowlege to hack those figures in no time...and even when his calculations were not 100% accurat the aimed shot will still hit the target.

Like in SilentHunter....your torpedo may not hit the steven or the machine rooms...but it will still be a hit.

Posting on a phone so...

The whole TT game is an abstraction designed to simulate battlemech combat.
An aimed shot can miss due to... bad aim.
Have you read the current TT aiming rules, because it sounds like you havent.

[MustrumRidcully]

SMDMadCow, on 24 April 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

How do the aiming rules change balance? With or without a TC? With or without arm stabilising or pulse lasers?
They dont. You still have to hit, you then have to determine if you hit where you wanted. If not, then damage is randomly allocated per the usual. It doesnt sound like you've even read the aiming rules because you should know the penalty for aiming is pretty high.

Look at the armour and structure values on mechs. Now think about what is the best spot for most mechs to aim at to kill him so that he can deal the least damage to you.

If you can reliably aim for the head, do that. If you're more reliable with the Center Torso, do that. That's what it pretty much boils down to.
The optimal case where you might be better off disarming a mech would basically need to be a mech that holds all its weapons in one hit location, or the arms.
So, there is little reason not to go to outright core an enemy mech, instead of disarming then. That makes the whole hit location thing a lot less impressive.


Next step, think about what pin-point accuracy can do. A Hunchback 4P can deliver 40 damage to one hit location. Think how many mechs can take that. Think about how different that is from spreading all that damage across the enemy suface.
And while you'Re looking at that 4P - why would you use the 4G? It can only deliver 30 damage to one hit location (1 AC/20 and 2 Medium Lasers), or 33 if you get close enough. The 4P is simply better. Some will argue that the 4P is already better now, but with random hit location, the AC/20 has at least a chance to critically hit some location (or even outright destroy some mech's head). With chosen locations, that no longer applies.

That's why moving from the assumption that random hit locations are standard to the assumption that the pilot controls the hit location most of the time changes balance concerns a lot.

[Kyone Akashi]

SMDMadCow, on 24 April 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

The whole TT game is an abstraction designed to simulate battlemech combat.
An aimed shot can miss due to... bad aim.
Have you read the current TT aiming rules, because it sounds like you havent.

I have a feeling you're missing the point of this thread. The TT rules were already posted on page 1.

The problem is that your "bad aim" is more likely to cause a miss than the pilot just using "spray 'n pray" - a mechanic undoubtedly derived from balancing concerns and rather standard in tabletop games (chiefly RPGs). The discussion here is based on the assumption that some things - in this case aimed shots - in the rules can be achieved in a more realistic and possibly more fun way, hopefully without becoming more complicated. So people are throwing suggestions around.

[Pht]

Karl Streiger, on 21 April 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Pht you know that the choice of hitlocations is already in the tt called TC. In my first games I used them as welcome additional -1 for to hit always ignoring the +3 to go for the kill.
It was the Legionaire and its RAC 5, that changed that.
Its high risk high gain.

you're right: I did forget about that, and here it is:

Total Warfare, Pg 143 said:

TARGETING COMPUTER To make an attack using the targeting computer, follow all standard rules for weapons of that type, but modify the to-hit number for any attacks using the unit’s weapon by –1 (see the appropriate Weapons and Equipment table to determine which weapons can be used with a targeting computer).

The controlling player may use the targeting computer to attempt to attack a specific hit location on an active unit. To do so, an attacking unit ignores the standard –1 to-hit modifier for the targeting computer and uses the Aimed Shots rule (see p. 110), but applies an additional +3 to-hit modifier. The target need not be immobile when using a targeting computer to make such an aimed shot; if the target is not immobile, then the –4 to-hit modifier for an attack against an immobile target does not apply. An attacker cannot target a ’Mech’s head when making an aimed shot with a targeting computer.

If using a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an immobile target, apply an additional –1 modifier (representing the targeting computer) to the –4 immobile target modifier. All other rules for an aimed shot remain the same.

LB-X Autocannons: When firing cluster munitions, LB-X autocannons lose the benefits of the firing unit’s targeting computer.

Pulse and Rapid-Fire Weapons: Pulse and rapid-fire weapons may not use a targeting computer to make an aimed shot, unless a rapid-fire weapon is fi ring a single shot, in which case it can make an aimed shot as described above).

And here's the aimed shot rule that's referenced:

Total Warfare, Pg 110 said:

Aimed Shots: Players may make aimed shots against units that are shut down or whose warrior is unconscious, using any weapons other than missile launchers and LB-X autocannon firing cluster munitions. When firing on an immobile ’Mech, the attacking player can make an aimed shot by naming a target location. Against any hit location except the head, the player makes the to-hit roll using the standard –4 to-hit modifier for firing at an immobile target.

If the attack is successful, the player rolls again. On a result of 6, 7 or 8, his shot hits the designated location. For any other result, the player rolls normally on the ’Mech Hit Location Table. (This roll may still result in the attack striking the desired location.)

If the attacker is taking an aimed shot at the target ’Mech’s head, modify the to-hit number by +3 rather than the normal –4. If the shot hits, the player rolls 2D6. On a result of 6, 7 or 8, the shot hits the head. For any other result, roll normally on the ’Mech Hit Location Table.

Players cannot use the Aimed Shots rule to make physical attacks.

Targeting Computer: A warrior can use a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an active target (see Targeting Computer, p. 143). If using a targeting computer to make an aimed shot against an immobile target, the player adds a –1 modifier (representing the targeting computer) to the –4 immobile target modifier. (All other rules remain the same.)

http://www.battlecor...roducts_id=1734

or:

http://www.bookfinde...sic&st=sr&ac=qr

----

High risk indeed, especially if one is trying to make a headshot vs a mobile 'mech.

I haven't worked the math out, but it seems that your chances of missing totally offset the ability to pick a location when using a targeting computer - I imagine the total number of weapons hitting any given location are not going to be that much higher percentage wise than aiming center of mass while not using an advanced targeting computer... and TC's are obscenely heavy and large - not only are they computer hardware, but extra hardware to help the individual weapons converge... and only a few mechs could use them, if a sane mechlab set of restrictions were enforced.

I'll have to edit this into my post on weapons convergence... It will be interesting to see the reaction of the pro-fps/shooter crowd to this.

[TheSteelRhino]

There is already rules for this.

[Epoksi]

I don't know if anyone of you has played Space Marine(predecessor of Epic 40,000)
but it had rather interesting mechanic when determining hits to titans.
Firstly you would choose where you want to hit (ie head, legs etc) and every location has a different to hit roll depending of difficulty (head more difficult to hit than body etc) and after you have hit you roll two special die other would have left and right and the other up and down with few blanks on them.
For example 8+ to hit the head, I roll 9 and then throw special dice and get BLANK and UP results (hit location is moved up to an empty space)and in effect its a miss.
I could see something like this being somewhat equal to current TT rules in time and effort.

[SMDMadCow]

Kyone Akashi, on 24 April 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I have a feeling you're missing the point of this thread. The TT rules were already posted on page 1.

The problem is that your "bad aim" is more likely to cause a miss than the pilot just using "spray 'n pray" - a mechanic undoubtedly derived from balancing concerns and rather standard in tabletop games (chiefly RPGs). The discussion here is based on the assumption that some things - in this case aimed shots - in the rules can be achieved in a more realistic and possibly more fun way, hopefully without becoming more complicated. So people are throwing suggestions around.

The current TT rules add 1 more dice roll IF you can hit with the extra modifiers, sounds pretty simple to me.

[SMDMadCow]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 April 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

stuff

Sorry if I didnt make it clear, but I was talking about the current TT rules.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm....I apologize to ignore the ongoing discussion:

But instead of aiming just for a hitzone you also can "create" a more detailled hit box system...even with the current Record Sheets.

All you have to do is to choose what part on the internal location tables are visible from the outside. (Weapons, Hips, Joints...)
A player can chosse to aim directly at those equipment.

Question is what happen when the roll succeed.... (i don't see a way with current ablative armor system however)

[Kyone Akashi]

SMDMadCow, on 25 April 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

The current TT rules add 1 more dice roll IF you can hit with the extra modifiers, sounds pretty simple to me.

As already pointed out earlier, the original rules are not criticized because they are too complicated, but because some people think it's a bit silly that AIMING means it's harder for you to hit ANYTHING. Such as ... you know, adjacent components?

With the current rules, it is impossible that a shot aimed at the right torso might, for example, hit the center torso. Needless to say, this is not realistic in any way, but I believe it is possible to create a mechanic that can better represent what happens on the battlefield.
Things being abstracted does not mean we have to drop every aspect of these descriptions. I don't think anybody would argue that components should be discarded in favor of a single hit zone for the entire 'Mech, even though that's just another abstraction.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 26 April 2013 - 03:43 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Just a reminder concerning the battles in the novels. A number of the authors actually played through them using the boardgame.

But I would suggest that the current body sections be broken up even more, doubling the number of sections (except cockpit).

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 April 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[SMDMadCow]

Kyone Akashi, on 26 April 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

As already pointed out earlier, the original rules are not criticized because they are too complicated, but because some people think it's a bit silly that AIMING means it's harder for you to hit ANYTHING. Such as ... you know, adjacent components?

With the current rules, it is impossible that a shot aimed at the right torso might, for example, hit the center torso. Needless to say, this is not realistic in any way, but I believe it is possible to create a mechanic that can better represent what happens on the battlefield.
Things being abstracted does not mean we have to drop every aspect of these descriptions. I don't think anybody would argue that components should be discarded in favor of a single hit zone for the entire 'Mech, even though that's just another abstraction.

Actually, the aiming rules state exactly how shots can hit other locations.
The game and its rules are an abstaction of what is depicted to be happening on the board. Its not going to make perfect sense in every situation, but if you think about what could be happening...
The shot could miss by going over the RT (miss roll)
The shot could hit the CT (hit roll, failed location)
The shot could hit the RT (hit roll, sucessful location)
The shot could fly past the RA (miss roll)
Try not to think of the rolls happening in a linear progression, they are an abstract way of telling you what is going on.

[Kyone Akashi]

That's referring to Aimed Shots, right? You need a Targeting Computer to attack active 'Mechs with it, and not every BattleMech has one. Called Shots can be used by anyone, but there you either hit the designated area or the shot misses completely.

Aimed Shots are already fairly close to what I'd like to see, just that their usage shouldn't be this limited but an option open to anyone. Also, why do you essentially get a -5 penalty to hit the Mech at all just because you are aiming on a specific component? This is balancing (to bring this type of attack in line with standard attacks), nothing else, and I think there are more elegant solutions.

On a sidenote, there is no need to explain the concept of abstraction. I think everyone in this thread is aware of it.

[SMDMadCow]

Obviously we're not getting anywhere, I blame my inability to adequately express my thoughts through the written word.
So I will say this:
I disagree. The current system works, it balances gameplay, and delivers anticipation and exitement to gameplay. In my experience, there is no need to change it because it is damn fun the way it is.

[MustrumRidcully]

SMDMadCow, on 26 April 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Obviously we're not getting anywhere, I blame my inability to adequately express my thoughts through the written word.
So I will say this:
I disagree. The current system works, it balances gameplay, and delivers anticipation and exitement to gameplay. In my experience, there is no need to change it because it is damn fun the way it is.

I think the central point here is - I want a (new) game system that is completely build around this assumption that you aim for a hit location. Every shot would be considered a called shot, and these shots might be as easy as normal shots currently are. And I want to figure out what would change from the current system to better accommodate the assumption that pilots can hit specific hit locations. That means the fundamental risk of aimed shots in Battletech - that you are much more likely to miss completely - would be gone. That means even if you aim for the head, your to-hit roll to hit the mech at all (but not necessarily actually the head) would be the same as when you'd go for the center torso or the right arm.

By comparison, imagine that you had a 50 % chance on every normal attack in Battletech to hit exactly where you want to hit. No penalties on the attack, just a 50 % chance to hit. It would be pretty transparent to you what hit location you'd choose, wouldn't it? Now let's say the rule is just a tiny bit more complex and the head isn't an option for it. Then you'd also probably know the next hit location you would pick, wouldn't you?

If you don't want a new game system and are happy with Battletech, the rules might not be interesting to you, of course. IN that case, ignore it or treat it as an intellectual exercise.

[Kyone Akashi]

SMDMadCow, on 26 April 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Obviously we're not getting anywhere, I blame my inability to adequately express my thoughts through the written word.

In retrospect, I may have worded my responses in a clearer manner as well. Let's just settle for a difference in preferences.

On a sidenote, at least this "mental exercise" also got me to touch the Battletech AGE P&P modification I've been working on again and incorporate the stuff I came up with there.
I know there's the A Time of War RPG (which I have and like), but I never really enjoyed that 'Mech combat there is supposed to use the standard tabletop rules, as the TT itself does not support character roleplay a lot - plus, its reliance on miniatures pretty much makes online P&P (such as via IRC or Skype) impossible, or at least necessitates the use of an elaborate map tool. >_>

[Kurayami]

Why not just add some actual aiming instead of magic insta convergence everything tumbo-yumbo? oh wait - there is no need for aiming in COD.

Edited by Kurayami, 28 April 2013 - 04:01 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kurayami, on 28 April 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Why not just add some actual aiming instead of magic insta convergence everything tumbo-yumbo? oh wait - there is no need for aiming in COD.

Abstraction. If you want to model larger battles,you really don't want to go with too many modifiers and too many rolls. I think Battletech already suffers from a lot of rolling, and I am glad that the few times I play it, I use MegaMek.
Basically, you could try to model the pilot firing every weapon seperately. But if you allow him to aim for a hit location anyway as default, you an just shorten the process and make it one roll for multiple weapons. That might be interpreted as convergence working, or (which I prefer) as an abstraction. That's why my approach for player-selected hit locations allows for the defender to choose weapons to spread the damage across two hit locations. It can not just describe a single, sustained laser strike being spread across a larger area then intended it can also describe one of the seperately fired shots hitting the intended location and the other not hitting the intended location.

Quote

I know there's the A Time of War RPG (which I have and like), but I never really enjoyed that 'Mech combat there is supposed to use the standard tabletop rules, as the TT itself does not support character roleplay a lot - plus, its reliance on miniatures pretty much makes online P&P (such as via IRC or Skype) impossible, or at least necessitates the use of an elaborate map tool. >_>

Oh, mapless Battletech combat... That's a whole other can of worms. (But if you want to open it, I'd join that quest, err thread.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 28 April 2013 - 05:05 AM.