673 replies to this topic

[Prime2310]

Hi

even before the massive damage increase LRMs were really good. i can now fire my entire ammo clip at them (+- 1400) and i would barely do anything. i would hit a stalker fuill onto the front on numerous volleys and land a 40 salvo and it would just stand there.

they do no damage at all. even to lights it will take so many salvo's to kill him where even before the massive splash and damage increase they would be able to kill.

please consider increasing the damage again as i feel it is way too low. LRM boats have basically been taken out of the fight.

i love my CATA-A1 with my 2 lrm 15's and 2 lrm 5's with artemis. but now i do absolutely no damage at all. when i hit most of the time it seems i do absolutely no damage.

[Cathal Witwemacher]

ROPh03n1x, on 26 March 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Hi

even before the massive damage increase LRMs were really good. i can now fire my entire ammo clip at them (+- 1400) and i would barely do anything. i would hit a stalker fuill onto the front on numerous volleys and land a 40 salvo and it would just stand there.

they do no damage at all. even to lights it will take so many salvo's to kill him where even before the massive splash and damage increase they would be able to kill.

please consider increasing the damage again as i feel it is way too low. LRM boats have basically been taken out of the fight.

i love my CATA-A1 with my 2 lrm 15's and 2 lrm 5's with artemis. but now i do absolutely no damage at all. when i hit most of the time it seems i do absolutely no damage.

LRMs are a support weapon. That means you pick your targets and fire at those that have already received damage from a main-line fighter. They are not meant to be long-range, seeker-killers. You pick a target that has already been damaged by a main-line fighter. That is what a support weapon does. It supports the main-line fighters. That's the trade off for not being face-to-face with the thing you are shooting at.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Please fix SRM dmg back to the way it was please. kk thx.

[Sheraf]

LRM is main weapon on some mechs, not support as some people claim. People only die to LRM due to bad positioning, and that can be happen with just any type of weapon.

Edited by Sheraf, 27 March 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Cathal Witwemacher, on 27 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

LRMs are a support weapon. That means you pick your targets and fire at those that have already received damage from a main-line fighter. They are not meant to be long-range, seeker-killers. You pick a target that has already been damaged by a main-line fighter. That is what a support weapon does. It supports the main-line fighters. That's the trade off for not being face-to-face with the thing you are shooting at.

LRMs are no more a support weapon than an AC20 is. There are a few situations where LRMs are used to support a mech where the LRM mech has no line of sight, and as far as I know, they do less damage without line of sight. However, with line of sight the LRM mech is just as exposed to return fire as any other mech. In fact you could make a valid argument that sending up a brightly glowing ball of missiles is more face to face than creeping arounds with AC20s and Gauss Rifles. LRMs are like a giant shoot me sign to every mech on the map. So your assumption LRMs are not face to face when used with Line of Sight to other mechs is false.

Artemis and TAG are supposed to buff damage concentration and tracking when used with Line of Sight and since MWO LRMs are not fire and forget, that damage buff needs to be significant to be balanced with direct fire weapons. MWO has no Lag, so hitting with direct fire weapons is actually easier, safer, than using LRMs. I could just as easily state LRMs should do more damage than direct fire weapons because they expose the user more than Acs or lasers that fire instantly and allow the mech to turn away or dodge return fire. Things the LRM mech can't do.

It all needs to be balanced of course. LRMs can hit indirectly, so that bonus is weighed against line of sight buffs, but LRMs are not a purely support weapon. They are a long range tactical option that grants an advantage when used in long range situations, just like any other long range weapon would, over brawler configured mechs.

[SpiralRazor]

I logged in specifically to reply to this post, after reading a few of the others, and this the only one im going to reply to this week.



1.8 to 0.7 is ******* i n g stupid.

I dont need to test it, i did that long ago at 1.0 and it was rubbish.

I logged in for a day or two after the Jagermech patch, but yeah....

games jumping the shark and its not even out of "beta"....it really does seem like one clueless decision after another.

And to the people who are spouting "BUT LRMS IS SUPPORT WEAPON!!!" ..... Uninstall, get your GED and get off the public welfare, because that's the level your brain is operating on.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 27 March 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[stjobe]

SpiralRazor, on 27 March 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

1.8 to 0.7 is ******* i n g stupid.

Actually, listing 1.8 and having the actual damage be closer to 6 was what was effin' stupid.
Or listing 2.5 for SRMs and having the actual damage done be 12.9 per effin' missile was what was effin' stupid.

And since you apparently didn't read the OP, the missile code is BROKEN, and the current values are TEMPORARY. They WILL change.

[coRpSE]

I agree with Sheraf and Lightfoot, I use a LRM Atlas D-DC, and I play mine more forward then most others. Since this last "Fix", which was not even a temp fix, I can't really hill anything let alone really hurt anything. I went out in my K2 earlier and took 7 volleys from a 3 LRM atlas and it made me orange, I am sorry, but that's not right.

stjobe, how is it a temp fix to nerf that much down to fix them. If they actually fixed them, even for a temp fix, I would believe they would have the values a bit closer then they are now. I have done modding in the past and usually in just a few hours, I could get the weapon values on what I was working on at what i believed they should be at and never be this far off. This to me is more of them changing a few values and throwing it out there.

If they were really testing this stuff before its released to the Gen pop, large mistakes like this would not be coming out almost every month or two. I have Alpha / Beta tested many games, mods, maps, scripts including making maps, mods, and scripts over the past 10 years and I have never see so much go wrong, with exception of BFBC2, that was just a nightmare in the beginning.

Values like what was going on can not be a result of how many people are playing, this is just a example of poor testing of it before release, plain and simple. hopefully they will learn from this and get it addressed, and maybe start testing things a bit more closely before releasing the patches so stuff like this don't happen.

Edited by coRpSE, 28 March 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[stjobe]

coRpSE, on 28 March 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

stjobe, how is it a temp fix to nerf that much down to fix them. If they actually fixed them, even for a temp fix, I would believe they would have the values a bit closer then they are now.

If you had read the OP, you'd know. But I'll break it down for you:

* The community made the devs aware that missiles were doing too much damage
* The devs acknowledged it was indeed a bug, and started working on a fix, which was slated for the April 2nd patch.
* In the March 19th patch, they fixed a bug with legs taking too little damage. In doing so they broke something else, and missiles started doing damage to heads in addition to any other damage they did. This made them very, very overpowered, and the devs decided to do a hotfix.
* During the work on the initial bugfix, they had discovered that the missile code was very, very broken. Removing splash damage completely made too many missiles home in on the CT, making missiles too effective.
* So they decided to do the following in the hotfix on March 21st:
- reduce splash radius from 4m to 1.8m and 1.3m for LRMs and SRMs respectively
- reduce splash damage to 40% of direct damage (before it did full damage), and make splash damage fall off linearly with distance to the impact point (before it did full damage all the way out to 4m from the impact point)
- reduce direct damage to 0.7 and 1.5 for LRMs and SRMs respectively.

They didn't fix any code in the hotfix, they just reduced missile damage so that we could play the game somewhat fairly.

The broken missile code is still in the game, and the fix to that code is still slated for the April 2nd patch, as far as I'm aware.

So bottom line: The hotfix didn't fix the code, it fixed the insane damage missiles were doing. The real fix is yet to come.

Edited by stjobe, 28 March 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[Sheraf]

stjobe, on 28 March 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

If you had read the OP, you'd know. But I'll break it down for you:

* The community made the devs aware that missiles were doing too much damage
* The devs acknowledged it was indeed a bug, and started working on a fix, which was slated for the April 2nd patch.
* In the March 19th patch, they fixed a bug with legs taking too little damage. In doing so they broke something else, and missiles started doing damage to heads in addition to any other damage they did. This made them very, very overpowered, and the devs decided to do a hotfix.
* During the work on the initial bugfix, they had discovered that the missile code was very, very broken. Removing splash damage completely made too many missiles home in on the CT, making missiles too effective.
* So they decided to do the following in the hotfix on March 21st:
- reduce splash radius from 4m to 1.8m and 1.3m for LRMs and SRMs respectively
- reduce splash damage to 40% of direct damage (before it did full damage), and make splash damage fall off linearly with distance to the impact point (before it did full damage all the way out to 4m from the impact point)
- reduce direct damage to 0.7 and 1.5 for LRMs and SRMs respectively.

They didn't fix any code in the hotfix, they just reduced missile damage so that we could play the game somewhat fairly.

The broken missile code is still in the game, and the fix to that code is still slated for the April 2nd patch, as far as I'm aware.

So bottom line: The hotfix didn't fix the code, it fixed the insane damage missiles were doing. The real fix is yet to come.

Or they could simply revert the code to before the leg damage fix. That would be more fair than now.

[Sir Fuzzy]

After playing many many LRM filled matches I can finally say that I FEEL LRM's are garbage at this point.

I can eat endless LRM's and not care no matter what mech I am in (ok 4 or 5 volleys of 50-70 missles does start to hurt after awhile) and I can lay down TONS of missles on someone's face with tag and Artemis and have them not even notice me for quite some time.

SRM's FEEL ok to be honest. I have played with 10 SRM's on a Raven and 18 SRM's on a Treb and the damage was not bad. Probably more in the range it should be now.

My recommendation would be to take LRM's up to 1 damage and see how that works. I think that little boost would make them FEEL important but not OP.

[Sir Fuzzy]

After playing many many LRM filled matches I can finally say that I FEEL LRM's are garbage at this point.

I can eat endless LRM's and not care no matter what mech I am in (ok 4 or 5 volleys of 50-70 missles does start to hurt after awhile) and I can lay down TONS of missles on someone's face with tag and Artemis and have them not even notice me for quite some time.

SRM's FEEL ok to be honest. I have played with 10 SRM's on a Raven and 18 SRM's on a Treb and the damage was not bad. Probably more in the range it should be now.

My recommendation would be to take LRM's up to 1 damage and see how that works. I think that little boost would make them FEEL important but not OP.

[Tzukasa]

Sheraf, on 28 March 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Or they could simply revert the code to before the leg damage fix. That would be more fair than now.

This EXACTLY. They should have just rolled back the changes they did in the jager patch like Any Other dev team on the planet would have rather than nurf ALL missles across the board to unplayable status literally gimping a good 50% or more of all builds in the game. PGI has, in my mind, honestly surpassed SoE as the most incompetent dev team I've Ever Seen. And that is saying ALOT lol.

[ATao]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

I really hope you can get SRMs back to what they were before that missilebuff-nerf patch-hotfix combo. Right now I FEEL that they are doing at least 10-20% less damage to most targets than before the 19th of March.

[StillEvil]

Buff SRMs back, please, or they are becoming utterly useless.

[Kaiser Thermidor]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

Missiles feel like crap now.
LRM 20s do 14 damage (outdone by 3 medium lasers in pure damage), SRM6 does a whopping 9 (outdone by 2 MLs). *If* all the missiles hit, which unless you're TAG-ing which is difficult on any enemy with more than two brain cells, since you know, cover, or point-blanking with SRMs, which has always had the issue of sometimes not registering. If they were pin-point weapons, I would be more understanding about a damage nerf but now I am really questioning why I'm even putting missiles on my mechs when I could use the weapon/ammo tonnage for larger lasers and heatsinks.

I'll be blunt: I'm not here for TT values; if I want that, I would either be playing tabletop BattleTech or playing MechWarrior Tactics. But I'm not. This is MechWarrior Online, supposedly a spiritual successor to MechWarriors 3 & 4 (but mostly 3), and that series has to my knowledge always been more removed from BattleTech and its systems/values due to that it needed to adapt due to being a videogame rather than a game dictated by random dice rolls.

In my mind, missiles are a more skillful weapon than, say, lasers. Why? Lasers are hitscan, don't require a lot of thought; aiming is easy (for most people), it does its damage and you move on.
(For those wondering, I generally consider ballistics to be about the same "skill" as missiles, at least in an ideal world where everyone approaches things in a way similar to what I do, which is doubtful in the extreme; see below)

LRMs, while not the epitome of 'difficult to master or use' weapons, at least require some amount of tactical consideration before you fire them (ideally). Is that person ducking behind cover? Do I have a reliable lock? Will I hit an ally circle-strafing that target? Some people are less concerned about ammunition and don't think about these things as much or at all, but that's something else.

SRMs are, obviously, less tactical but still require some amount of decision-making due to hard-capped range, travel time, and spread (especially that annoying X shaped spread).
The tactical (or whatever term you want to use) thought that these weapons (ideally) require are what allow them to be harder-hitting, a difficulty-vs-reward thing.

Finally, LRMs in particular do not feel scary any more. I can practically wade through them. Having 36 points of damage raining out of the sky is scary. 14 points? Hardly.

About the splash radius/damage change, I'm fine with that. They're small explosions (relatively), and likely shaped charges to penetrate Mech armour (which is supposed to be some amazing stuff, according to Sarna.net). Makes sense to me. And I like sense.

In short, put the damage back to or close to what it was (i.e. 2.0 dmg for SRMs, 1.5 for LRMs, etc). I hate it how it is now.

Edit: Spelling

Edited by Vadim Krasvanya, 29 March 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Tesunie]

Cathal Witwemacher, on 26 March 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

That was the point I was working around. LRMS have a smaller payload, but a greater blast radius as compared to SRMs. #readingcomprehension

Could this be a balance issue more than anything else? LRMs might have the larger splash range for balance on near hits on unseen targets, where as SRMs might have smaller radius because they are more direct fire, are larger (animation of missile) and do more damage overall. SRMs might have smaller blast to keep their damage from multiplying too high, unlike before, where as that multiplier wasn't as damaging to LRMs, due to having less overall damage to start and being less effective without line of sight.

Just some thoughts on the subject.

[Xigunder Blue]

Legolaas, on 21 March 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Lrmers/srmers


whine whine whine


LOVE that PATCH. :*

They have screwed one part of the player base to please another part. How is that working out? Want us 'whiners' (and our money) to just go away? Or please stay and be cannon fodder? It would be interesting to see how you feel when the 'next!' nerf hits you. Why not tick off everybody but a few 'elite' players? "The ambush is always in the same place!" (Heartbreak Ridge).

Edited by Xigunder Blue, 29 March 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[Slambot]

My suggestion. LRMs are a virtually dead weapons system now. (If you hold that it isn't, then why can you go as many as 5 matches without ever seeing and LRM mech?[as a primary weapons system]) Very few people carry many of them anymore and nobody is intimidated by them. Yes, the LRM was a dominant weapons system before the "fix". I wont mention the brief period where they were hitting only heads and legs since it was an aberration. 1.7 is simply too much damage per missile. The spread of damage however was PERFECT. You hit arms, legs torsos etc.

LRMs have lots of upside in the fact that they have 1000m range can fire over and behind cover. They have lots of balancing features however. They have a massive flight time. The target gets a warning. If you are behind cover or can move behind cover they do no damage.

My solution: Up the damage of LRMs to 1.0-1.1 damage per missile where they should be.

Eliminate splash damage.

Make missiles do a very gradual spread as the flight range increases so that the hit mech appears to take a "shower" of damage which encapsulates every part of the mech from head to toe. Shorter ranges should mean smaller degrees of spread.

Now for SRMs. The mechs most hurt by the change to this system were the lighter ones. They NEEDED SRM damage to make them a reasonable threat to their heavier cousins.

The solution here again is up the damage to 2.0 damage per missile where it should be. Eliminate splash damage. Increase the spread of damage gradually as range increases.

[MN03]

It's epic how FAST PGI is to fix LRMs but ECM is still OP after months. I'll bet there's no fix this Tuesday, but it's going to take several more weeks.