2001 replies to this topic

[MW Waldorf Statler]

no to a Mech Ghost Recon !statt sich ernsthaft mit Mechwarrior udn den Möglichkeiten zu beschäftigen udn energie in die jetzigen Probleme zu stecken , überlegt man sich lieber solchen Müll...mit sowas lockt man dann all die Cheater ,Wallhacker und Co an ,die es dann noch leichter ...

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 30 March 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

CSJ Ranger, on 30 March 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

no to a Mech Ghost Recon !statt sich ernsthaft mit Mechwarrior udn den Möglichkeiten zu beschäftigen udn energie in die jetzigen Probleme zu stecken , überlegt man sich lieber solchen Müll...mit sowas lockt man dann all die Cheater ,Wallhacker und Co an ,die es dann noch leichter ...

Genau!!

[IceSerpent]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

We understand players may be concerned about matchmaking and further segmenting the player base. So are we. Before going live with a 3rd person option, we plan to investigate and solve any potential issues further fragmentation may cause.

Bryan, here's the first major problem - it will split the player base, no questions about it. Given that current player base is not large enough to even allow for strict Elo matching, splitting it even more will result in much longer queue times. When players are unable to find a match within reasonable amount of time, they tend to leave, which exacerbates the problem and creates a snowball effect (not enough players causes people to leave --> you end up with even less players, which causes more people to leave). This is a Bad Idea ™ in my opinion.

Quote

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work. These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

A second major problem that is not adressed by your ideas listed above is that 3rd person view allows player to see that wall they are about to bump into (or cliff they are bout to fall from) and this is a big advantage that is inherent to placing the camera outside the mech. In order for the system to be functional, you have to be able to see in front of your mech without mech itself blocking the view, this translates into a FoV always being wider than normal even if you pull camera in when close to a building. The only way to get around this (that I can think of at least) is not to render terrain that player is not supposed to see, but then it would look really ugly.

The bottom line is that 3PV creates more problems than benefits and those are very serious problems. Naturally, it's your game and therefore ultimately your decision to make, but I think you really should reconsider this whole idea.

[Alienfreak]

IceSerpent, on 30 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Bryan, here's the first major problem - it will split the player base, no questions about it. Given that current player base is not large enough to even allow for strict Elo matching, splitting it even more will result in much longer queue times. When players are unable to find a match within reasonable amount of time, they tend to leave, which exacerbates the problem and creates a snowball effect (not enough players causes people to leave --> you end up with even less players, which causes more people to leave). This is a Bad Idea ™ in my opinion.

This. Like 10% of the games I play in have a 7vs8. And the ELO rating is already freaking fkd. Either somebody is joking around or something but I can swear that I sometimes see Trial mechs who are that badly piloted that it has to be a new guy.

Yesterday at 18:00 local german time I played a 4vs6...

And PGI is talking about splitting the playerbase!

Edited by Alienfreak, 30 March 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[jay35]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

This is one of our largest concerns. In fact, it's one of the reasons we don't just jam in more game modes. Yes, a theoretical boom would help ease a transition, but we're not going to rely on that to solve this issue. We are still formulating a plan. I don't have a complete answer for you at this time.

Having multiple game modes (read: game types such as deathmatch, CTF, base assault, etc) has never been a problem for normal FPS games. In fact, it is a benefit as it provides modes that appeal to a wider array of players, reduces burnout such as when having only one mode like we do now (point capture).

Having multiple game modes is only a problem for MWO due to the matchmaker system, which needs everyone in one large pool in order to create the best matches.

If players had a proper server browser and lobby system, there would be no problem and no fragmentation as it is no longer an "either or" scenario where the matchmaker has to try to create matches from separate smaller pools.

Edited by jay35, 30 March 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 29 March 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

and me but we're all minorities.
BUT they ask that minority how it should be implimented.
thats just off to me. We get no say in whether or not it gets put in the game BECAUSE we are the minority, BUT at the same time they ask the minority they dont want chiming in on IF this game should have 3pv, HOW they should implement it.

How is ~5000 people against 3rd person a minority, when only ~300 wanted it

The only demographic that wants 3rd person is PGI and their fanboi defense force

Community will be split, first person PUGing will be impossible, game will lose more players.

Edited by LordBraxton, 30 March 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Coolant]

Caleb Lee, on 29 March 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Apparently you weren't playing in any real leagues like NBT where the good players were. Those were the ones modding and supporting the community at large for the most part, had metagame with strategy and so on...

If you wanted random 3rd person view cheese sniper matches with unlimited ammo, no heat then yeah. There are hacks (crutches) for FPS too but I've never used any.

Nope, wasn't talking about NBT...was talking about Mercs pre-mektek vanilla and post mektek patches. To deny the popularity of 3rd Person servers would be to deny the truth. 3rd Person was the majority, so therefore there is a demographic that both wants and worth tapping into.

Once again, if, as has been expressed, the majority of players based on polls and threads here favor 1st Person, it was NOT reflected in either Mercs vanilla or Mercs+Mektek. I don't care if you played another Mercs mod that only had 1st Person. The fact is, there was a sizable population (until at least a few years after Mercs was released) that wanted and played 3rd Person even though it was just as easy to create a 1st Person only server. It really doesn't matter if good or bad players played 3rd Person, that doesn't change the fact that PEOPLE (and potential customers of PGI) wanted it. Tired of hearing that the majority of players don't want 3rd Person, when Mercs - the previous title - had plenty of players that wanted it. You are arguing a fallacy, because there WAS a market in Mercs for 3rd Person.

Edited by Coolant, 30 March 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Tipps]

I posted this WAY back in November or whenever the very first 3rd Person announcement was made. Obviously there is a mode called "training grounds" now, but the main idea could still be implemented. A game mode that is easy to grasp and a faster pace, this game mode allows for third person to be used.

Anyways, this was my post in November:

Anyone ever play MAG for the PS3? The first gamemode that you have access to is a "training" grounds where you fight people from your own PMC group. The rewards weren't the greatest and the gametype wasn't the most fun, but it was a place to start to learn the basics of shooting each other.

Keeping that in mind, all I'm suggesting is a PVP "training grounds." A simple TDM that allows a 3rd person camera for new players. Keep the rewards less than gamemodes that would be for "real" such as Community Warfare. People that want 3rd person so they can take screens will be happy, and new players will get to see how their mech's legs work. All of that and the main feature of the game (fighting for each other's planets) will be a forced 1st person perspective.

- Tipps

I would just like to add, make sure to clarify 3rd person would be for this gamemode only. Any other gamemode is locked in 1st person. That way any new players interested in moving on to bigger and better things, will know they should probably get in the habit of piloting 1st person BEFORE joining community warfare.

Also, this "training grounds" gametype would not be mandatory for new players. If they choose, they can jump straight into the thick of it. Veterans wanting to try out 3rd person or wanting to take a picture of their brand new mech earned with the cash from fighting in the Inner Sphere would also be able to hop in any time.

Edited by Tipps, 30 March 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Coolant, on 30 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Once again, if, as has been expressed, the majority of players based on polls and threads here favor 1st Person, it was NOT reflected in either Mercs vanilla or Mercs+Mektek. I don't care if you played another Mercs mod that only had 1st Person. The fact is, there was a sizable population (until at least a few years after Mercs was released) that wanted and played 3rd Person even though it was just as easy to create a 1st Person only server. It really doesn't matter if good or bad players played 3rd Person, that doesn't change the fact that PEOPLE (and potential customers of PGI) wanted it. Tired of hearing that the majority of players don't want 3rd Person, when Mercs - the previous title - had plenty of players that wanted it. You are arguing a fallacy, because there WAS a market in Mercs for 3rd Person.

I think you are missing the point here - yes, there were (and are) people who want 3PV, and yes, this was never a big problem with MW4 Mercs because there was no need to put everybody into a single pool. You wanted 1PV - you played NBT, you wanted 3PV - you played MekTek, and everybody was happy. Besides, servers were run by players, so money was not a huge concern.

In MWO the situation is completely different due to all players being in a single pool by design. So, we are not talking about just adding a new "game mode", we are talking about losing customers. It's either-or scenario: if PGI keeps the game 1PV only, they won't get new players that want 3PV, but will retain the existing players that want 1PV. If PGI introduces 3PV, they'll potentially get new players who liek 3PV (assuming that those players can be convinced to switch from WoT), but will undoubtedly lose the existing players who like 1PV.

[MWHawke]

Heeden, on 30 March 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

The upper body of the mech is attached to the hip.

Buddahcjcc, on 30 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Yeah, in mechs like the linebacker:

Buddah has the point. Hedeen, stop to think rather than jumping in feet first trying to be sarcastic.

[MischiefSC]

I absolutely get the desire to widen the appeal of the game but what you're effectively talking about is splitting the pbase into hardcore vs casual in addition to already splitting it by pug/premade in addition to region by region.

Whatever you do, however you cut it, in whatever way you attempt to implement it, 3rd person will either be better than or worse than 1st person. The concept of 'Separate but Equal' isn't a new one. It's got a long historical precedent in a lot of things, including games. The reality is that having both 3rd person and 1st person will split the playerbase based on play style. 1st and 3rd person will never be equal - it'll just be a matter of which is better in the end. Same reason nobody uses small pulse lasers.

They are different game experiences. Almost universally 3rd person gives a wider FOV. Trying to nerf 3rd person in other ways is either going to make it virtually useless or is not going to matter.

If you do it, understand you're creating a division and a conflict in your playerbase that'll pretty much never get fixed.

3rd person in any usage other than purely cosmetic (a hudless, no target, not useable when an enemy is within X range sort of vanity view) is going to create problems that'll eventually eliminate 1st person or essentially drive all your 1st person players away.

That is what it is. 1st person and 3rd person don't play well together. There isn't any way to fix that. Separate but Equal isn't a road that will ever lead you somewhere productive.

[Heeden]

MWHawke, on 30 March 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Buddah has the point. Hedeen, stop to think rather than jumping in feet first trying to be sarcastic.

You have the upper body, just below it you have the hips. If the camera is locked on the torso you will see the hips and can tell your direction of travel easily without looking away from the game area.

[MischiefSC]

Buddahcjcc, on 30 March 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

They actually refused to split the ques for this because of the playerbase split. Too bad they didnt use that excuse for why NOT to do 3rd person

The population is split. That they are forced to drop together is a problem - at this point I'm hitting a point in my own gaming where 9 out of 10 games I play have a premade on one or both sides. VOIP and teams is a powerful, powerful advantage. Coordinated focus fire trumps every other factor in the game - everything. I'm not saying that dropping premade is bad - far from it. I dislike a lot of the premades I seem to drop with as they never communicate with the team but whatever. I am however about to a point where my choices are, since I'm not going to use voip, either quit or just give up on getting any better and accept that I'm going to lose a lot and have no means of progression. Which is to say, probably quit.

At the moment though there's a lot of changes coming. I'm happy to wait for them. The addition of 3rd person however would, to be fair, promote my departure from the game. It's not a threat or anything just saying that I don't want to play 3rd person but it's going to be a big advantage and everyone is going to go that way.

Having 3 queues, 3rd vs 3rd, 1st vs 1st, mix of both would be akin to saying 'premade vs premade, pug vs pug, any vs any'. Who's going to populate them? Most pugs will play pug vs pug. Most premades will play all vs all because they know they'll have an advantage over any pugs stupid enough to drop that way. Only a few competitive sorts will play premade vs premade. We call that 8-mans.

It's going to be the same thing only it'll be easier to go to 3rd person. So people who like 1st person will have three choices -

1. Play how you don't like but have an advantage.
2. Play how you like in 1st vs 1st but have a sparse matchmaker and associated issues.
3. Play how you like but at a disadvantage in a mixed queue as fodder for premade 3rd person teams.

Or, of course, option 4 -

Play something else.

Final comment -

Integrity is huge in games, especially for small companies. You need to deliver on your promises. I get that businesses need to make money. I'm all for it. Just be honest about it. I can't believe PGI doesn't suspect that releasing 3rd person doesn't have a big risk of going badly but are tempted by the prospect of more people and more money. I get that, I totally do.

Don't do it though. Turn back, PGI, it's a trap! The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. Don't break trust, don't sacrifice a core game element in the hope that somehow all your 1st person players just... won't notice or care.

We'll notice. We do care. Please don't.

[Roadbeer]

[SirLANsalot]

WoT uses both modes btw. You use 3P for driving around and doing quick drive by's, but if you want to snipe like in a TD then you use 1st person. Hence it will be the same here if we can swap between then two on the fly. Use 3P for quick drive by fights (like in a light) but if you want better accuracy when shooting at specific locations, you will need to use 1st person, especially for longer range fights.

[Jess Hazen]

dont do it. should worry about more pressing matters like working out current bugs and getting more mechs and more maps out first.

[Krell Darkmoon]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Why add 3rd person?

• Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating.
  
• Offers up a different style of gameplay and tactics.

Sorry that sounds like a half feigned "what would sound like a good excuse" to me and many others I'm guessing.


The "Broader Audience" are playing their X-Boxs n PS3s, MWO won't get them to put down the Console Controllers and pick up the Keyboard n Mouse. The Keyboard Warriors you had will continue leaving in droves. Good Job

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.
  
• Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.
  
• We understand players may be concerned about matchmaking and further segmenting the player base. So are we. Before going live with a 3rd person option, we plan to investigate and solve any potential issues further fragmentation may cause.

So 3 SEPARATE View Groups for Each Regional Server. Do you really have to investigate the "potential issues" of complete fragmentation of what few players you're now driving off?


Did you fail basic Math?
3 Views X Regional Severs
3 x 2 (North America + Europe) = 6 Fragments
3 x 3 (North America + Europe + Asia) = 9 Fragments

If you need 3x4 it's 12, just FYI

When you have an already small Player Base, you don't shatter it into 6 to 12 pieces and hope more people join.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.

• Standard forum rules apply, please be kind, courteous, and clearly communicated your ideas or opinions.
  
• This is not the place to say you dislike 3rd person.

I dislike the REVERSAL of the original "We won't add 3rd Person" just as much as I Dislike the REVERSAL of the "We won't add Coolant"

Seeing as you're company can't keep a decision for very long, how long until you reverse adding 3rd person?

Another Question: How many Reversals until I can get a Fraking Refund?

Edited by Krell Darkmoon, 31 March 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[Dreamslave]

Seeing as how reversals are your teams motto, why not just pull the very best reversal: make us pay for a copy of the game on release, make it not f2p, make it not an FPS game anymore, screw the "mech sim" facade and change the title of the game. Because 3PV added on to all of your other errors are about to force this game into barely resembling a MechWarrior title.

[SirLANsalot]

So after reading all the bellyaching about 3P, everyone seems to be forgetting that there is one game out there that literally has the best compromise.

World of Tanks literally has the best system out there for both 1P and 3P. They are hot swappable you can go into either mode in a single button. In WoT you use 3P mostly for driving around and taking pot shots at enemy's but not really for any specific targeting of components (tracks in this case) unless you are point blank with one another. Its better suited for fast tanks (or mechs here) like lights or mediums, but you still swap to 1P when you want to track (or in MWO take a leg/arm) a bigger tank (mech) with a well placed shot (or alpha for MWO). Also 1P only lets you use zoom in WoT you cannot zoom at all in 3P, this means you can't snipe with a Tank Destroyer unless you are in 1P mode. Meaning you cannot see left or right of you to see if another tank is sneaking up on you, since even your tank can't spot them.

Here in MWO this hot swap system of 1P/3P could apply very well to the very issue the players are clamoring over. In 3P you cannot zoom at all, in MW4 you could still use the zoom box even in 3P so you could still snipe. PGI here has a chance to fix that issue and disallow any zooming at all. Meaning you cannot use the advanced zoom module when in 3P, nor can you even use normal zoom you get now. You will have to swap to 1P mode to zoom in to take a sniper shot. The advantages of 1P become apparent now, meaning you will have the advantage of being able to place your firepower where you want it, even while brawling, over what 3P can. In 1P you will have a better sense of where your guns are, and where they are landing, in 3P you will just know your shooting at something and will be spraying everything all over the place. While in 3P you would be able to pilot your mech better, as you would have a better sense of where your legs/torso are and a better awareness overall of where you are in relation to the terrain.

So overall, 3P would be better for mid/short range combat but be less accurate and be better for driving your mech. 1P would be better for overall combat and you would have better accuracy as you are much closer to your guns but piloting your mech becomes slightly harder. No need for separate game modes for 1P/3P, as EVERY pilot would have them both active at all times, and it would be up to them if they wanted to swap between the two at a whim. Both views would have there advantages/disadvantages but no one mode would be "better" then the other. All the while the spotting system we have now would still stay intact. While in 3P you wont see weapons fire or mechs if your pilot did not see it happen in the first place.

Having an option to check what mode you wish to start the game in would be needed too.

[SirLANsalot]

Dreamslave, on 31 March 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Because 3PV added on to all of your other errors are about to force this game into barely resembling a MechWarrior title.

Mechwarrior 4. Best Mechwarrior title out there, and 3P was in it and used everywhere. As such the un-named masses will have remembered that game....and come here expecting the same thing. And without 3P will leave disappointed, without 3P and the Clans, most people won't get into this game until such a time as both of those are in. Since, again, most people remember MW4 very fondly, and only the small but noisy few, don't.