2002 replies to this topic

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

You're playing a different game now. Chill out. 3pV is just as much a part of the mechwarrior complete experience as 1pv is.

for you maybe, for me? i never played mw games in 3pv (besides mech commander ofc), and it never will be part of the mechwarrior franchise for me, so speak for yourself please

PS: every time i hear mech and 3pv i remember x-com:enforcer game great and fun game but i expect something else from mw:o

[Pando]

LogicalTightRope, on 30 June 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Well, Mystere, I don't buy that you have any magic solution or free-floating camera idea that will produce no advantage because you did not explain it (or at least, try as I might, I could not find any post explaining it) and you did not elaborate any meaningful amount. I still have absolutely no idea what method you are referring to, so I have to assume there is none until proven otherwise. Third person done in a way that would allow one to see a significant amount of the exterior of their mech will, invariably, allow at least a small amount of vision of areas not seen by 1st person. No matter the FOV. There is no magic, free-camera solution. So, again, I ask you: Elaborate.

This is all i need elaborate on

1st v/s 1st que- views (equipment) are the same = no advantage
1st + 3rd que(mixed mode, toggles)- views (equipment) are the same = no advantage
3rd v/s 3rd que- views (equipment) are the same = no advantage

If everyone in "X" que are playing by "Y" set of rules there can be no advantage..because the same tools are available through the rules as defined by "X" que.

/argument

BigMekkUrDakka, on 30 June 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

for you maybe, for me? i never played mw games in 3pv (besides mech commander ofc), and it never will be part of the mechwarrior franchise for me, so speak for yourself please

PS: every time i hear mech and 3pv i remember x-com:enforcer game great and fun game but i expect something else from mw:o

How about you list every single licensed mechwarrior game created into two categories. What is and isn't apart of the mechwarrior franchise is not up for debate.

Put them into categories

1st only

other

I wonder which category is more prevalent.

[LogicalTightRope]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

You're playing a different game now. Chill out. 3pV is just as much a part of the mechwarrior complete experience as 1pv is.

But is 3rd person worth it? Is it worth splitting the community into 3 queues per gamemode (this very well may limit the number of gamemodes to be very few, considering PGI was already worried about more gamemodes splitting the queue so much)? Is it possible to do in a way that will be even and fair in a 3pv vs 1pv game? I don't care so much about the past MW games in this discussion, except the distinct ways not to do 3pv, as demonstrated in MW:4.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

How about you list every single licensed mechwarrior game created into two categories. What is and isn't apart of the mechwarrior franchise is not up for debate.

Put them into categories

1st only

other

I wonder which category is more prevalent.

okay lets play this game


How about you list every single licensed mechwarrior online PVP (MOBA) game created into two categories.

Put them into categories

1st only

other

[Pando]

LogicalTightRope, on 30 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

But is 3rd person worth it? Is it worth splitting the community into 3 queues per gamemode (this very well may limit the number of gamemodes to be very few, considering PGI was already worried about more gamemodes splitting the queue so much)? Is it possible to do in a way that will be even and fair in a 3pv vs 1pv game? I don't care so much about the past MW games in this discussion, except the distinct ways not to do 3pv, as demonstrated in MW:4.

You have no idea what anything is going to do regarding the community. You can only speculate. Wait for it to come, then blast your criticism. If you're waiting 20+ minutes to find a game in 1pv only then obviously there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

BigMekkUrDakka, on 30 June 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

okay lets play this game


How about you list every single licensed mechwarrior online PVP (MOBA) game created into two categories.

Put them into categories

1st only

other

I'm waiting.

[LogicalTightRope]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

This is all i need elaborate on

1st v/s 1st que- views (equipment) are the same = no advantage
1st + 3rd que(mixed mode, toggles)- views (equipment) are the same = no advantage
3rd v/s 3rd que- views (equipment) are the same = no advantage

If everyone in "X" que are playing by "Y" set of rules there can be no advantage..because the same tools are available through the rules as defined by "X" que.

/argument

It's a matter of preference. If I'm playing the 3pv and 1pv mixed queue, I don't want to be forced into 3pv by the advantages it brings. I don't want to be kept from playing against people who prefer 3pv in a way that is comfortable for me aswell. If there is any advantage to 3pv, the 1pv and 3pv queue may aswell just be another 3pv queue. THAT is why there needs to be no advantage in 3pv. It would be a waste of money and a useless split in the queue.

It's not fair in the 1pv and 3pv queue for people who like 1pv to be forced into 3pv by advantages.

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

You have no idea what anything is going to do regarding the community. You can only speculate. Wait for it to come, then blast your criticism. If you're waiting 20+ minutes to find a game in 1pv only then obviously there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Or voice my concerns now for developer's consideration in the implementation process. Things need to go well even in the early testing phase and to do that, the devs need to think of everything. There's barely ever a time in which constructive criticism can't help.

Edited by LogicalTightRope, 30 June 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'm waiting.

i'm waiting too

[Pando]

LogicalTightRope, on 30 June 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

It's a matter of preference. If I'm playing the 3pv and 1pv mixed queue, I don't want to be forced into 3pv by the advantages it brings. I don't want to be kept from playing against people who prefer 3pv in a way that is comfortable for me aswell. If there is any advantage to 3pv, the 1pv and 3pv queue may aswell just be another 3pv queue. THAT is why there needs to be no advantage in 3pv. It would be a waste of money and a useless split in the queue.

It's not fair in the 1pv and 3pv queue for people who like 1pv to be forced into 3pv by advantages.

If you're playing in the mixed que you're accepting that both options are available. How about I spin the same back at you? I don't want to play 1st and 3rd mixed que and be forced into 1st because of the advantages it offers over 3rd. The way Bryan has eloquently phrased it, its a disadvantage to pilot in 3rd. Now what?

BigMekkUrDakka, on 30 June 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

i'm waiting too

Tell you what, answer my question then I'll answer yours. After all, I asked first. The only difference is, mine has more relevance.

BigMekkUrDakka, on 30 June 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

okay lets play this game


How about you list every single licensed mechwarrior online PVP (MOBA) game created into two categories.

Put them into categories

1st only

other

FYI

according to this article https://en.wikipedia...ne_battle_arena your list would be short

"none" and "none" would surmise your categories.

Edited by Pando, 30 June 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[LogicalTightRope]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

If you're playing in the mixed que you're accepting that both options are available. How about I spin the same back at you? I don't want to play 1st and 3rd mixed que and be forced into 1st because of the advantages it offers over 3rd. The way Bryan has eloquently phrased it, its a disadvantage to pilot in 3rd. Now what?relevance.

What view advantages could 1pv offer over 3pv? I don't recall Bryan saying it's a disadvantage to play 3pv. After all:

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.

The necessity to mention that 3rd person's viewpoint will not effect the targeting, which will be made from a 1st person point of view, implies that there is a slightly different area being seen. One simply cannot target the mechs that otherwise would have been seen in 3pv but not 1pv, however.

Overall, the way he describes 3pv looks like it will be *mostly* fair, if not completely fair. However, I don't believe 1pv is likely to be an advantage. And if it is, that only furthers my point - in that case, the mix queue may aswell just be another 1pv queue, segmenting the community needlessly. Back to my original point: THAT is why 3pv absolutely must have no advantage over 1pv (and vice versa) so that there is no needless segmenting. If there is segmenting, and no problems arise despite more future gamemodes, that's fine too - I just think it's unlikely.

Edited by LogicalTightRope, 30 June 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Pando]

LogicalTightRope, on 30 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

What view advantages could 1pv offer over 3pv? I don't recall Bryan saying it's a disadvantage to play 3pv. After all:

The necessity to mention that 3rd person's viewpoint will not effect the targeting, which will be made from a 1st person point of view, implies that there is a slightly different area being seen. One simply cannot target the mechs that otherwise would have been seen, however.

Overall, the way he describes 3pv looks like it will be *mostly* fair, if not completely fair. However, I don't believe 1pv is likely to be an advantage. And if it is, that only furthers my point - in that case, the mix queue may aswell just be another 1pv queue, segmenting the community needlessly. Back to my original point: THAT is why 3pv absolutely must have no advantage over 1pv (and vice versa) so that there is no needless segmenting. If there is segmenting, and no problems arise despite more future gamemodes, that's fine too - I just think it's unlikely.

How about you toss up some quotes from the most recent ATD sessions regarding 3pv. These are more in line with what I'm referring to.

So, is it the same then.

If 3rd gives you the advantage of angle/sight.
If 1st gives you the advantage of a complete HUD, targeting the whole works....

If both view option has an advantage and a blatant disadvantage over the other, utilizing them correctly and situation-ally does make them skill-based...correct?

Edited by Pando, 30 June 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[Dr B00t]

this is a waste of programming resources that would be better spent on...you know, making the game better

[LogicalTightRope]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

How about you toss up some quotes from the most recent ATD sessions regarding 3pv.

I don't need to. Even if 1st person has advantages over 3rd, well, read my last post again. The mix queue will still be rendered useless. You must understand that I'm not saying that 3rd person should be completely left out. I'm saying that is must be equal to 1st person, no advantages or disadvantages, and tossed in a single, mixed-but-fair queue. My worry is that it can or will not be done completely fairly. I did find this little line:

Bryan Ekman, on 14 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

A: Once players get their hands on 3PV, I think most people will be pleasantly surprised how little the camera impacts gameplay. Early tests are showing that there is not much of an advantage. That being said, until we get this viewmode in the hands of 1000s of players, we’re not going to see how it fully gets used.

which is somewhat promising, but I'm not sure whether he considers it 100% equal to 1pv or just 'close enough.' I believe the slightest difference will, in the long run, cause big problems in the mixed queue.

Edited by LogicalTightRope, 30 June 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Pando]

Dr B00t, on 30 June 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

this is a waste of programming resources that would be better spent on...you know, making the game better

Different people, different jobs.

Listen to podcast #79 from NGNG this was clearly outlined. Therefore, your post is irrelevant.

[Mystere]

Mr Blonde, on 30 June 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

you have to read those posts as if they are government types...the true intent is always behind the veil, and probably the opposite of what you think they're saying ...

Hmm. An ad hominem reply, suggesting that I have ulterior motives.

I can do the same you know. But, I will refuse to step into the gutter in which you live in. ( )

[Pando]

LogicalTightRope, on 30 June 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

I don't need to. Even if 1st person has advantages over 3rd, well, read my last post again. The mix queue will still be rendered useless. You must understand that I'm not saying that 3rd person should be completely left out. I'm saying that is must be equal to 1st person, no advantages or disadvantages, and tossed in a single, mixed-but-fair queue. I did find this little line:

which is somewhat promising, but I'm not sure whether he considers it 100% equal to 1pv or just 'close enough.' I believe the slightest difference will, in the long run, cause big problems in the mixed queue.

Just because its useless "in your opinion" does not discredit its relevance to be contained within this game.

I will go back to what I said initially. What you're saying right now is pure speculation. Wait to see it implemented then provide the feedback. It's actually impossible to provide feedback on something you've not had the liberty of testing.

@BigMekkUrDakka

I'm still waiting.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Tell you what, answer my question then I'll answer yours. After all, I asked first. The only difference is, mine has more relevance.

that what i wanted to hear, i understand how much you like to play devils advocate but this is no excuse for derailing discussion with unrelated questions

please forget about "other" mechwarrior games, they have almost no relevance to this discussion (they share the name at most), right now we have current game (MW:O) to discuss with its own unrelated to other mw games specifics so in short disadvantages that brings 3pv to MW:O

1. using 3pv in only 1pv queue for gaining unfair advantage
2. splitting community (which is almost killed quake franchise fyi. which is greatest fps of all times)
3. scaring off devoted fans who doesn't need 3pv
4. scaring off newbie players with: 3 or so alternate queues, inability to play in 3pv in some gamemodes
5. turning game design towards "arcade" mode which probably good for some one but not for me for sure

tl:dr: stop pointing at other mw games they have nothing to do with mwo

[LogicalTightRope]

Mystere, on 30 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Hmm. An ad hominem reply, suggesting that I have ulterior motives.

I can do the same you know. But, I will refuse to step into the gutter in which you live in. ( )

Heh. It's reasonable to think some 3pv proponents have ulterior motives considering the reasons many present for 3pv would also allow for advantages. For instance, seeing the majority of your rad paintjob, while somehow not being able to see enemies behind your mech. By the way, any elaboration on that?

[Mystere]

Mystere, on 29 June 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I have two words for you: data visualization.

CyBerkut, on 29 June 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Two back atcha: Reduced workload

Yes, I agree. A better data visualization solution (e.g. 3PV or better HUD design) will result in reduced workload for the brain, allowing it to allocate more resources for other things like piloting and gunnery. See, it is a great solution, and finally you agree!

I will open a bottle fine wine to celebrate this momentous occasion.

Edited by Mystere, 30 June 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[LogicalTightRope]

Pando, on 30 June 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

Just because its useless "in your opinion" does not discredit its relevance to be contained within this game.

I will go back to what I said initially. What you're saying right now is pure speculation. Wait to see it implemented then provide the feedback. It's actually impossible to provide feedback on something you've not had the liberty of testing.

I didn't say 3rd person will be useless. I gave a reason why the mixed queue *might end up* useless.

Providing constructive criticism beforehand can have positive results by alerting the devs to specific potential problems so that they can be shaken out easily, or so that the system can be made from the ground without the capability to have these problems. Constructive criticism is ALWAYS useful, and I will continue to give it where it is due beyond when 3pv is made available aswell, so have no fear.

Mystere, on 30 June 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Yes, I agree. A better data visualization solution (e.g. 3PV or better HUD design) will result in reduced workload for the brain, allowing it to allocate more resources for other things like piloting and gunnery. See, it is a great solution!.

providing a better data visualization solution for people who play 3pv but not 1pv is unfair because that resource is then only available to people playing 3pv, not 1pv. As a result of the reduced workload for the brain, 3pv players are more able than 1pv players to allocate more resources for other things like piloting and gunnery. It is not a great solution. Logic, my friend.

Better HUD design is fine, as long as it's available to both, of course.

Edited by LogicalTightRope, 30 June 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Pando]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 30 June 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

that what i wanted to hear, i understand how much you like to play devils advocate but this is no excuse for derailing discussion with unrelated questions

please forget about "other" mechwarrior games, they have almost no relevance to this discussion (they share the name at most), right now we have current game (MW:O) to discuss with its own unrelated to other mw games specifics so in short disadvantages that brings 3pv to MW:O

1. using 3pv in only 1pv queue for gaining unfair advantage
2. splitting community (which is almost killed quake franchise fyi. which is greatest fps of all times)
3. scaring off devoted fans who doesn't need 3pv
4. scaring off newbie players with: 3 or so alternate queues, inability to play in 3pv in some gamemodes
5. turning game design towards "arcade" mode which probably good for some one but not for me for sure

tl:dr: stop pointing at other mw games they have nothing to do with mwo

This is exactly what I expected from you...nothing

You delivered exactly what I expected. Thanks. I love being right.

If talking about mechwarrior. Licensed mechwarrior video games. Licensed mechwarrior video games with 1st person ONLY pitted against licensed mechwarrior video games with OTHER perspectives is irrelevant to this discussion thread...i think you're in the wrong thread.

What did happen?

I called you out
I cited specifically your incorrect term usage
You fired back with blah blah advantage blah blah i'm not going to answer you
Childish, again what I expected from you.
Facts; there are more licensed mechwarrior IP games with 3rd person which does make 3pv apart of the mechwarrior experience regardless of what you FEEL personally.
Run along now.

I'm going home now. Thanks for the discussions LogicalTightRope. Enjoyed it

Edited by Pando, 30 June 2013 - 07:42 AM.