2002 replies to this topic

[Duncan Longwood]

"Offers up a different style of gameplay and tactics."

So what tactics does 3rd person view add?

I know it adds pop-tarts who can check to see if the coast is clear before playing peek-a-boo.

I know it eliminates Suppressive Fire as a tactic. From Wikipedia: In military science, suppressive fire, also covering fire, is area denial fire that degrades the performance of an enemy force below the level needed to fulfill their mission. Suppression is usually only effective for the duration of the fire. With 3rd person, you can still gather intel on my position, relay that info to your team, and drop some arty on me without ever poking your mech out from cover.

I know it will allow dead ghost-riders to relay intel back to their remaining team with their vastly expanded ability to read the battlefield. It will be possible to have the first player dead take over the MechCommander role and cycle through your remaining teammates 100 degree plus viewing angle, directing the battle over comms.

Ever snuck up behind a stalker in your spider, while staying in his blind spot, as he ignores the fact you are peeling the armor off his back because every time he looks around he can't find who is shooting him? That was an awesome experience to have in my spider... after having been on the receiving end in my stalker. This won't be possible with third-person view.

Basically I love the tactics of this game and if I could see a way that 3rd person made more tactics available instead of less, it would be a much easier thing for me to support.

No sarcasm meant, but if anyone can answer I would love to hear it... What does third person add to the tactical gameplay without eliminating currently available tactics?

Edited by Duncan Longwood, 21 March 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[JadePanther]

ok this is gonna start a civil war u dont want... And the matchmaker is gonna suffer..

3rd person are gonna wanna play against everybody, seeing as they will garner some advantage..

1st persons are not gonna wanna paly with 3rd's, face it theres already a couple thousand purists against it by a forum poll...

some guys will just feel betrayed and quit outright...


May it be attractive to console kiddies, yea.. Do we really want thier kind???

No good can come of this really no good... and we are all gonna suffer.

[DirePhoenix]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.
  
• Players can set their preference in the options menu, or during the launch phase before matchmaking.

So in addition to further segregating the playerbase on TOP of Factions/Merc Corps/Lone Wolves (which is fine b/c it gives setting/opponents/teamplay), you're going to further split the playerbase into view modes? I don't think this has been completely thought out.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

• We are very aware of the design and balancing challenges faced by adding a 3rd person option and will address these through exhaustive private and public testing before pushing any 3rd person features live.
  
• We understand players may be concerned about matchmaking and further segmenting the player base. So are we. Before going live with a 3rd person option, we plan to investigate and solve any potential issues further fragmentation may cause.

​The only way I can think of this working would require a gargantuan amount of players for EACH TYPE of view preference because otherwise players of one view type WILL be playing with players of another viewtype... Three different "servers" (for lack of a better term) of Community Warfare (on top of the different servers per region):

• 1st and 3rd person view NA
  
• 3rd person view NA
  
• 1st person view NA
  
• 1st and 3rd person view EU
  
• 3rd person view EU
  
• 1st person view EU
  
• 1st and 3rd person view Pacific
  
• 3rd person view Pacific
  
• 1st person view Pacific

Now, on top of having the playerbase split across at least 9 instances of the Inner Sphere, on each of those servers players are going to be further split among faction players for each House, Merc Corps, and Lone Wolves (b/c Merc Corps apparently aren't fighting alongside House Units, and Lone Wolves are pretty much just filler for all the matches).


EDIT: forgot about the ELO bracket segregation... on top of all of this...

Edited by DirePhoenix, 21 March 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Integernine]

Divine Madcat, on 21 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

But if these other users do not even participate in the forums, how can you conclude that they want this?

It is so frustrating.. because your core base doesn't agree with what you want, you just choose to ignore them and assume that the silent people somehow agree?? It makes no sense..

Not to mention, usually about what, 3k forum members are online near peak? 2500 right now? How many voted in the poll, and how many votes actually "mattered" to be counted?

3rd person was fine for single player, used it in MW3 all the time. But this is multiplayer. Fragmenting the playerbase into yes/no/maybe camps and making matches for that sounds like a headache for PGI's end to implement, playtest and balance.

[Roadbeer]

JadePanther, on 21 March 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

May it be attractive to console kiddies, yea.. Do we really want thier kind???

[Shumabot]

Quote

Ever snuck up behind a stalker in your spider, while staying in his blind spot, as he ignores the fact you are peeling the armor off his back because every time he looks around he can't find who is shooting him? That was an awesome experience to have in my spider... after having been on the receiving end in my stalker. This won't be possible with third-person view.

This is where I became certain you were just making things up, that stalker didnt turn around because he's going to die of old age before you strip his rear with a spider. No one uses supressive fire in MWO because its nonsense, you can't kill people with a stray bullet and checking for safety with a poptart implies a distant third person camera and ignores the fact that it would be harder to shoot them in the first place.

[Targetloc]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person.

I hope this means it won't be available in Community Warfare.

If 'not being forced' means 'you don't have to play Community Warfare'... that would be terrible. The other problem would be if there's some kind of mechanic for uncontested drops counting as wins in CW then people could hide in the 3rd person queue to avoid fighting 1st person players (or vice-versa).

Allowing 3rd person forces everyone to go 3rd person because being able to see over hills and around corners is a massive advantage.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only.

I think the second option is redundant. 3rd person players will always want to play against 1st and 3rd person players together because they have an advantage over 1st person players.

[Oy of MidWorld]

Okay, trying to be productive here. I am concerned about the following issues:

1. Even if you incorporate a feature that disables player's view of mechs they would not have in direct line of sight from the cockpit, 3rd person players would still be able to see if they get attacked from behind. This is not easily noticed in the heat of battle in current gameplay, which is good. Sneaking up should be a viable tactic.

2. You made beautiful cockpits. Visibility from different mech's cockpits differs. This is actually relevant when choosing your mech. Good visibility is a plus in a Hunchback, poor visibility is something you have to live with in a Stalker. 3rd person will negate these (dis)advantages. Further "equalizing" mech's quirks and kinks.

3. I could imagine a "look at my mech while strolling along" 3rd person mode, when actually out of direct combat, the meaning of which would have to be determined.

Enough has been said about playerbase fragmentation and community warfare. Just like many others i consider playing against (or with) 3rd person players a dealbreaker.

Edited by Oy of MidWorld, 21 March 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[BanditRaptor]

QuantumButler, on 21 March 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

If you really want a full, comprehensive feedback on 3rd person view: add a mandetory poll to the patcher itself that every player must vote in before they can play next patch.

This is beta after all, and feedback is the most important aspect of a beta.

[Harabeck]

Wow, I really can't agree with this. Segmenting the player base is never a good thing. I can't understand the reasoning for 3rd person as you've given it. Do people whine about Call of Duty not having 3rd person? I can't see what's so hard about piloting a mech from first person. If you do this, you really damage the game as it is now. I can't even see how you can make it work with current mechanics. How will vision modes work? How will you let a 3rd person player see in front of them without raising the camera way up off the ground? How do you feel about destroying certain sneak approaches to fighting?

[Shumabot]

BeakieHelmet, on 21 March 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

This is beta after all, and feedback is the most important aspect of a beta.

You place too much faith in this playerbase. It doesn't know what it wants. If they did that kind of polling with everything we wouldn't have a hardpoint system and we'd be rolling dice to see how much damage we did.

[Arcturious]

I'm very happy I will be able to set myself to first person only.

Feedback / potential issues (some mentioned already):

Regions - Are you referring to the previously discussed EU servers? Would EU effectively become the test bed for this service? There are some concerns already with splitting of the player base by hard coded regions. This potentially adds another fragmentation point.

I like the idea of training grounds only to start. Honestly, it would be cool to load up a private game and check out Camo. Also, I could see this being good for some clans to make spectating duels easier. You could also have a light mech in 3rd person for example doing the recording of the match.

However, I don't think 3rd person belongs in the competitive scene. I would advise leaving it out of future tournaments for example. To participate you have to set first person view etc.

So looking at third person as a tool - it's a positive.

Looking at third person in matches - negative.

Regardless though you are planning on giving us choice. As long as that remains the case and we are never forced into playing in one mode or another to experience content then I have no issues.

Of course, looking into the future I can see new players having EXACTLY the same complaints in reverse. Once it is in, seen as officially supported it doesn't matter what we discuss now. Those future players will scream and shout that they have equal rights, should be allowed third person in tournaments, third person in CW etc. Sadly, they would be right to do so, as once it is part of the game people who use it have the same rights.

So I can only see this going down in one way. You will have two games. One with people playing First Person. One with people playing third person. If you believe you can successfully run two completely different instances of MWO along side each other, then that is your call as we don't have visibility of finances etc. You will need to duplicate everything. Duplicate tournaments, duplicate CW, duplicate leader boards. That is how I see the future in a best case scenario. Worst case of course is the overhead of duplication will eventually force a merger.

[UntamedHawk]

The main problem I see with a system like this is the segregation of the game queues, and its effect when a more predominate "meta" comes into play.

My suggestion would be to keep 3rd person available as an option only for a form of player-formed custom games, without a queue at all, while keeping the main game queue in 1st person only. This way all of the main game functions; Community warfare, random matches under ELO and such are all unified under one queue, while the option for 3rd person exists in a way that may still be utilized in a per-match basis.

Basically: Keep 3rd person out of queues, have it as an option in private game modes and training ground.

Edited by UntamedHawk, 25 March 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[Captain Ahab]

Well since it seems likely we'll get 3rd person no matter what, here are my 2 cents on the matter.

First off make sure you don't implement 3rd person until AFTER community warfare has come online. If the 3rd person option (something we were at one point told would never happen) shows up before Community Warfare (something we were promised would be a pillar of this game yet have seen nothing of) you risk alienating the founders because it will seem that you are diverting your attention and efforts from something that is supposed to be a core feature to something that many of them DO NOT WANT.

The second part would be to make it so that 3rd person view is limited to special game modes that do not interact with the community warfare aspect of the game at all. That way you can have the "newbie/poptarting" friendly section of MWO, which I imagine would be very similar to the current game (fighting just for a little bit of cbills and xp, but no greater depth), and you can have the "hardcore" section with community warfare and 1st person view only. This may split the player base somewhat but I imagine it would do less harm than having 3rd person teams wanting to drop against 1st person teams trying to take over planets.

TLDR: I can't see a very fair or easy way to actually balance 1st vs 3rd person perspective so instead give the founders the game they were promised (1st person sim game with community warfare) and then have a set of game modes that allow 3rd person view but are not tied into community warfare. And please finish community warfare first before any bit of effort goes into 3rd person view.

[shabowie]

I don't know how to constructively say that you guys are stubbornly insisting on implementing a feature with a good chance of ruining the game and alienating your core customers, so I won't. I hope somebody else can talk you guys off this cliff or come up with some miracle idea of how you can implement it without destroying your product.

Edited by shabowie, 21 March 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Tekadept]

Lets be fair If you give people 3PV, give 1PV players a 360 degree radar, it wont balance it out completely but it will be slightly better, at the very least the rear radar should detect as far back as the 3pv camera is.

Edited by Tekadept, 21 March 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[Demoned]

Play against 1st and 3rd players.

remove the option the play both at the same time and, I'll be happy

either 1st or 3rd, no mix and match please.


thank you

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

DCM Zeus, on 21 March 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

This will cause a major issue with CW, your going to have 3rd player only units trying to play against 1st player only units, this will ONLY cause a split and make CW stale. While this is speculation, it's still something that needs to be looked at.

You said it perfectly, DCM Zeus! YOU GOT IT!! You so didn't need to wig out and reply from class man.

You didn't have to panic. Speculation. Conjecture. Everyone, instead of the panties in a twist, DON'T PANIC... relax (don't do it), Take A Breath....

Reread what you wrote and remember what you just said "speculation."

...DON'T PANIC...

[Bryan Ekman]

Roadbeer, on 21 March 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Thank you. Fair answer. Follow up question: If the forum and the voters represent a small portion of the player base and their opinions do not necessarily represent the player base as a whole, but a core element (something I can somewhat agree with as it seems, outside of the help, faction and suggestion sub-forums, most of the posters are just venting). Where are you getting your statistical information from that this option is desired?

We did an analysis of our data and found that players in general were having a hard time learning how to control their BattleMechs. We spent time studying their behaviours, observing, and then formulated a series of improvements. You have already seen some of them (new user controls). We did some market research, looked at the target demographic that we engaged initially but did not retain (played a few matches and left), and found that many players were not able to easily grasp the concepts of their `Mech, especially movement. 3rd person will help solve some of these issues, along with a new UI, training and testing grounds, and other features coming down the pipeline.

Hope that answers your question.

[Pinselborste]

in order to make 3rd person view work, it has to be so close that you dont see your own rear torso and the camera should only move with your torso.


also, if you want to get more people into the game, you need advertisement and you have to fix bugs and finally balance things like mgs flamers and lbx.

3rd person wont help if the game is unbalanced and doesnt work correctly.

Edited by Pinselborste, 21 March 2013 - 05:06 PM.