2002 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

****** Cain, on 22 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

• 
  
  
  My concern is I know a few folk who play the likes of TF2 and such religously, and whilst they're very good at playing, the moment they enter that arcady mindset it takes a large amount of bad games before they're back in a Meching headspace.

As somebody with 1535 hours clocked into TF2, I reject this statement.

For one thing, since they're both shooters from first-person perspective (for now at least...) there's some of transferable skills (i.e. the ability to keep rapid-fire weapons like the Heavy's Minigun over fast targets translates into keeping a Medium Laser pinpointed on a single hit location here). And they're just completely different experiences in most ways, so playing one or the other isn't going to conflict with knowledge of the other one (if I play Starcraft II for a little while I don't suddenly forget how to play MW3 ).

Edited by FupDup, 22 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Icepick]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Since the majority of players who have an issue with 3rd person come generally from the core players, we elected to address this issue via this forum post to collect all of the concerns and ideas that this group faces or has with 3rd person.

Fair enough, and I suspected as much. Really, some wheels squeak no matter how much grease you use.

Heck, you have everyone's emaill address, how about sending out a mailer with a poll?

Edited by Icepick, 22 March 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Matt Newman, on 22 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I personally like 3rd person games and will play it in our game as a fun alternative I still think our game will be best played in first person.

Mixed mode, guard is first-person, Snake is 3rd person.

[AlphariusII]

The "bait and switch" argument has been done to death, so I'll leave that, but in direct response to Paul's post:

If the intent is to satisfy a larger audience or to provide a sort of "training wheels" for new players, how do you balance that? You listed several ideas that the dev team has tossed around, and while most if not all would be useful in preventing Mektek-style exploitation, they would also make an inexperienced player into fodder for any decent pilot. Any 3rd person that is balanced so as not to provide an advantage over 1st person is unavoidably confusing and counter-intuitive for a new pilot.

On another note, I'm also respectfully curious regarding Bryan's numbers in relation to 3rd person and polling. There are 2,881 unique users online on the forum as I type this. When I played back in October, late nights EST it was common to see the in-client counter down to roughly 1,000 online players. I can only assume that counter was removed at some point, but how high is the average number of frequent MWO players that 3,832 votes in the MWO 3rd person poll is so miniscule as to be discarded as irrelevant outright? Further, even if 3,832 votes are, say, 5% of the playerbase, the ratio of yes to no is still somewhat indicative; it can also be argued that players who visit the forums, despite contrary evidence, are not all here to troll and argue, but that the majority use the forums due to a higher interest and amount of time spent in the game. It would not be reasonable to expect preferential treatment for a tiny segment of the playerbase, but alienating your Founders and the others who spend large amounts of time in this game in the interest of casting a wider net is arguably not the best solution.

I'll conclude by submitting to you my honest opinion, that 3rd person view cannot possibly be implemented in a manner that both 1 ) does NOT provide an unfair combat advantage, and 2 ) does NOT severely handicap it's pilot. It is unnecessary, contradicts the idea of a simulation, and segments an already self-divisive playerbase. If you are truly set on adding 3rd person view, I sincerely hope you find an equitable and enjoyable way to implement it, but I don't believe such a thing is possible.

Edited by AlphariusII, 22 March 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[Aym]

Well if Third Person was right behind the mech's cockpit, where the normally easily viewed area in front was obscured by the back of the mech's head, and all you could see was the area of view normally covered by the sort of yellow-ish/orange UI element, that would be fine.

[Praehotec8]

I think 3rd person view is a workable thing as long as it's implemented carefully. As was stated, it ought to have enough restrictions and locked closely to the mech to avoid a view advantage. Further, I think there ought to be more limitations on the HUD while in 3rd person (i.e., you get some indicator that your heat is rising, perhaps a tone or flashing indicator, but not the exact heat readout, etc..)

The other thing is this: It appears that the large portion of the dedicated players will only want to play in 1st person. Well, then if that's the case it seems to me that there is little problem. Do as I intend to and primarily play in 1st person mode. All of us that want more of a simulation feel can play together and MWO can be free to attract an entirely separate crowd of more casual players who you don't have to interact with. CW should have separate instances for 1st and 3rd person, and perhaps no CW when players are doing 1st vs. 3rd.

PGI certainly needs to research things carefully to ensure the player base will not be too diluted, but really, in a sense, this could be what all of you hardcore players really want....a title where the dedicated players can be together and play the game they want while PGI hopefully pulls in a little extra income from casuals who can all play 3rd person together. Think of it as taking advantage for mass appeal to fund your own private version as well. (Look at things like MWLL....beloved by the niche crowd, but no exposure. Allow MWO to avoid that while providing you all the game you want to play)

[costi]

Being a long-time World Of Tanks player, I see this game borrowing more and more ideas from WoT. Consumables, the basic gamemode, even the general gameplay design. I imagine the idea of implementing 3PV also comes from looking at WoT (where it's a primary viewmode). It is not generally a bad thing (it is, after all, a huge success), however, this will lead to MWO being called "WoT with Mechs" - and at this point you no longer have a unique game, you have one of many WoT clones and the whole franchise goes down the drain.

Do not disregard the poll. Back when the counter was still there, it showed around 1.5k - 2k people online at any given time. Almost 4k people voted. The conclusion almost draws itself - the people who voted in the poll are not a minority, they're the majority of your active players. And the opinion voiced by that majority does not leave any room for doubt whether we like 3PV or not.

However, since this is supposed to be a suggestion thread, one from me:
How about adding a 3D hologram to the cockpit that will show the current position of the Mech and reflect torso twisting, arm movement, jumping etc. ? Leaves 1PV untouched and add a means to admire ones machine and get a sense of its state.

Edited by costi, 22 March 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[DrBunji]

Its hillarious, I've been slapping my F5 here at the start of the 28th page for a while now, posts just come and go and go and go. If it weren't for all the deleted posts, of which none has been purely ad hominem this thread would prolly be over 100 pages now.

Listen, you must have known exactly how this thread was going to end up, its almost making me feel bad for the developers having to read this, but you must sleep in the bed you made.

And just so theres no confusion; we love your game, thats why we are so scared that youll ruin it.

[Paul Inouye]

To all of you complaining about the deletions... I told you why it would happen. If you want to voice your grivances with 3rd person, that is what this thread is for. We ARE reading both threads. This one has a DEDICATED role as mentioned in the original post.

Please stay on topic.

[Pierce Rossignol]

raygun, on 22 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

i love this idea and fully support it

I'm not just being flippant. I mean, I am being flippant, but I'm also serious. Which, I know, is rare for me. But hear me out.

Make 3PV so that it engages only when the mech is shut down or at least stationary. This way, if no one's shooting at you, you can pop the hatch, break out the binoculars, and call in a SALT / SALUTE report from a safe hilltop or whatever. But make it so that you'd have to be a drooling m o r o n (EDIT and I can't believe they bleep out m o r o n! Who's it going to insult? Only m o r o n s.) to do it under combat conditions. Because you'd have to be. And definitely give a hitbox for the pilot -- 1 HP, no armor -- to discourage this kind of foolishness. You take a Gauss round while standing on top of your mech, you'll be riding it into the sunset like Slim Pickens on the bomb at the end of Dr. Strangelove.

Also, if you make this an option while the mech is underway, we'll be seeing YouTube vids of guys combat-surfing their Atlases . . . and I'll be one of them . . .

Edited by Pierce Rossignol, 22 March 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[Kill Dozer]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

/snip

We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.

/snip

If it is going to be implemented it needs to be included in a lobby/server browser system and as a game finding option. i.e. show me games "with, without and both".

I am firmly against it since I prefer a a SIM over an FPS, but that doesn't matter in this case. In previous MW games and leagues there was an option of using FFP (force first person) as a game option, hopefully there will be again.

[WardenWolf]

WardenWolf, on 22 March 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

I see two ways this can go, one being what Bryan described - but it has some downsides as others have noted. Here is another option to consider:

I recommend making 3rd person a movement-only mode. When you 'zoom out' to 3rd person, you can see better where your mech is vs the environment, and how your torso is positioned compared to your legs, etc. However, the targeting mechanisms would all be gone - and even the ability to fire might be disabled. This would prevent a lot of the concerns where someone would simply play in this mode all the time and have advantages over first-person views, but it would let people zoom out and see what is going on if they are confused about their location or want to get a view of their own mech (for screenshots, etc).

In whatever tutorial or training setup there ends up being, you could start people out in 3rd person. Show them their mech, let them see the torso vs legs stuff, etc. Then, when they get to the combat section, have them walk up to an enemy mech and tell them "okay, now to engage in combat you need to zoom in to your cockpit view" and then take things from there. This will give them a natural progression, and help them to understand the benefits of each view.

What say the Devs and Community to this idea?

Bumping this suggestion, as it seems to be getting overlooked in the more recent posts (and with all the deletes flying around). Would love to hear thoughts from the community about this.

[Sears]

costi, on 22 March 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

However, since this is supposed to be a suggestion thread, one from me:
How about adding a 3D hologram to the cockpit that will show the current position of the Mech and reflect torso twisting, arm movement, jumping etc. ? Leaves 1PV untouched and add a means to admire ones machine and get a sense of its state.

^^ this. Like when targetting an enemy mech on MW4. Solves all problems

[Jabilo]

Ok,would like to make a helpful post and hopefully it gets read.

The problems with third person are:

Third person mode people can see the enemy over hills and behind them where first person people can not. This gives them a tactical advantage.

Splitting the player base will be very problematic. It seems that the match maker does not work well all the time right now, splitting people up in to smaller pools is not going to be a good idea.

My suggestions are:

People in third person only see enemy mechs that they would have seen in cockpit mode.

My suggestion above takes away the tactical advantage which, means everyone stays in the same queue and we do not split up third and first person players. This solves the matchmaking problem.

Job done!

Edited by Jabilo, 22 March 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Morashtak]

I support a 3PV that only shows the map space as empty IF the other mech is NOT in FOV in 1PV.

ex. Mech A is at the south side if a two story building. Mech B is at the north side. Both mechs can peek around the building BUT will only see an empty space due to not being able to see each other as if they were sitting in their cockpit. Once one walks around the building and can see the other from the cockpit view the 3PV engine is then able to display the opposing mech. Surprise!

If I can see the Mech in first person view I will see it in 3PV. If I can't, I won't - I will only see an empty map.

[MrManiacal]

How about the using 3rd person camera as training wheels? Like locking the view to torso and close enough in so that you can only see the top of your mech and forward so there's not too much of a FOV advantage and make the arm lock mandatory in 3rd person view. In this case, you'd need to be able to switch on-the-fly, but maybe accuracy would suffer due to convergence, harder to use zoom, etc. Maybe for PUG only games, as another person suggested?.

Also, alternate vision modes would only work inside the cockpit, so no thermal, nightvision, magnetometer outside. I personally wouldn't use 3rd person, but maybe we can invite a broader playerbase in and turn them to "the Dark Side" (in cockpit view).

*EDIT: Sorry if any of these were already suggested, only made it through 13 pages of the thread... It's HUGE!

Edited by MrManiacal, 22 March 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Matt Newman, on 22 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I see your point you feel lied too. The truth is that was the position at that time.

What I am asking you to understand is there are people who would like to play the game another way.
I personally like 3rd person games and will play it in our game as a fun alternative I still think our game will be best played in first person. I believe the best games give players the option to play they way they want. Were going to do our best to keep fun and fair for everyone.

Matt

Which is open and honest, but what your saying is, we will tell you one thing promise you it even, and then break that when we change our mind.
You have to accept that type of position is always going to infuriate your playerbase.

You are dead right on one thing, the best games do let you play the way you want too, and your team is concerned about fracturing the community by adding a TDM game type.

So why fracture it with 3PV or regional servers?
PGI communications get attacked because your reasons are not consistent across the game, the well laid out design foundations and pillars are cast by the way side which adds to the rocky development.

You sold people a vision, and that vision is slowly being eroded because the game no longer resembles that vision.

Removing the HUD from 3PV is not that bad an idea, but would still present an advantage if the camera was free look, allowing view over terrain not available in first person.
I would suggest locking the view down to prevent seeing over objects whilst combining having no HUD.

Alternatively make it a consumable the overhead drone for example.

Edited by DV McKenna, 22 March 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[3ffigy]

Have you considered offering a cockpit screen or HUD overlay that had a 2-D or 3-D wireframe avatar of your mech that would show how your mech is contorted (torso twist, arm swing, feet etc) instead of having a full blown 3rd person combat view? In this space only render the player's own mech, and maybe limited topographical terrain info directly adjacent to the mech for context. Just the bare minimum to allow players to check their mech alignment.

Since no other mechs are rendered on this helper screen/overlay you don't have to worry about players finding creative ways to position their mechs to exploit the position of the 3rd person camera to allow them to see behind them or around obstacles like you may have in a full 3rd person play mode. Maybe this screen or HUD could be enabled/disabled via the options menu.

Edited by 3ffigy, 22 March 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Roland Verliden]

I think it should be set up such that, when you switch to third-person, all controls except torso and leg movement, throttle, and maybe stuff like "switch ECM mode" and/or "toggle weapon doors" are disabled, so it still accomplishes the purpose of allowing less-seasoned players to zoom out and get themselves unstuck while also preventing them from taking tactical advantage of the increased field of view. (I think some other people already suggested this.)

It could also eliminate the need for 1st vs. 3rd person, since having a key to activate an MW2-style external camera means that FP vs. TP is more easily balanced without having to add additional modes.

Furthermore, to satisfy hardcore players, 8-man groups should force first-person.

Edited by Roland Verliden, 22 March 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.

• Standard forum rules apply, please be kind, courteous, and clearly communicated your ideas or opinions.
  
• This is not the place to say you dislike 3rd person.

Thank you Bryan

for this straight-up post.

I understand

why you are implementing

3rd person view,

even if I don't like it.

If I were implementing it,

I would remove the cockpit,

place the mech in the

lower center of the screen,

and position the HUD where it is now.

Try not to make it look

too arcade-ish which is

probably my biggest fear.

Field of view should be similar

to what is experienced

now in the cockpit.

No advantages should be given

with a 360 degree view.

Also,

3rd person view

would assist with physical combat

should it ever be implemented.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 22 March 2013 - 02:19 PM.