2001 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

I think I have missed the implementation details. As such, if someone can give me a link, I will be grateful.

But, if people are crying all over the place without the benefit of those same details, then something is seriously off and I don't think it is on PGI's side.

[Westy543]

Not a fan... seems like it will divide the playerbase.

[Mystere]

benth, on 22 March 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

It's quite simple. PGI (Including Paul) made it a point to say how much of a bad idea 3rd person is when they were trying to get people to buy founders packages.

He even went as far as to say that 1st person is a pillar of design for MWO.

Now they're adding 3rd person. They're doing it while saying our feedback doesn't matter, and while saying that what they said in the past doesn't matter.

So now everything they say has zero integrity behind it.

That is not what I asked. And frankly, I don't care much what they promised to do or not do. Software development projects change direction, sometimes even for the better. As such, I will judge the game by the end product.

What I would like to know is if PGI has given implementation details and if the people commenting on this 29-page thread are basing their opinions on those, or people are just speculating on what PGI might do (i.e. doom and gloom, the sky is falling, etc.).

Edited by Mystere, 22 March 2013 - 04:05 PM.

[Socket7]

Third person view should remove your GUI.

I mean, you're not in your mech if you're in 3rd person view. why should you see your instruments or radar or targeting reticule?

Now you get to chose," do I get to be effective in combat, or have superior vision. "

And you cannot change modes mid map.

[benth]

Mystere, on 22 March 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

That is not what I asked. And frankly, I don't care much what they promised to do or not do. I will judge the game by the end product.

What I would like to know is if PGI has given implementation details and if the people commenting on this 29-page thread are basing their opinions on those, or people are just speculating on what PGI might do (i.e. doom and gloom, the sky is falling, etc.).

They are implementing third person view. They are going to separate queues into who wants to play with what perspective.

By its nature, third person view will be an advantage over first and will encourage poptarting.

Poptarting is what ruined Mechwarrior 4's online play. It is the reason why PGI made such a big deal about MWO being 1st person-only to begin with.

How detailed do you want the details? Camera over left shoulder or right?

Socket7, on 22 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Third person view should remove your GUI.

I mean, you're not in your mech if you're in 3rd person view. why should you see your instruments or radar or targeting reticule?

Now you get to chose," do I get to be effective in combat, or have superior vision. "

And you cannot change modes mid map.

The entire purpose for third person is to draw in new players that prefer that view.

They will not give it any disadvantages.

Edited by benth, 22 March 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[1453 R]

Piranha.

You guys are very obviously fully aware of the implications of making the statement "Third-person perspective is going into the game. Deal with it, and if you've dealt with it, let us know how you want it in." Mostly because you told us straight-up that you didn't want back-talk.

First of all, telling your player base not to give you any lip like a stern father yelling at his unruly son is pretty clearly going to get you guys some lip. I'm all for cutting you guys some slack, remembering that this game is in some mutant form of beta and that you're working with a property well-beloved by its fans and thus really, really easy to misstep and get people all frothing-mouthed over...but you have to admit the tone of this entire thread has been pretty cold.

Now. The question I have, and the one I'm hoping you guys are asking yourselves, is why? You know it's a giant rage issue, and you knew that a large number of players was going to see it as a betrayal of the entire MechWarrior series. You know it's a contentious issue, or you wouldn't have been so quick to assure us we'd never have to see or interact with 3rd-person players. 3rd person is for MechAssault, and even as a casual* fan of BattleTech, someone who never played TT and only got into it via the novels, the lore and older MW games...I can say this with a straight face and a joyous heart: to GEHENNA with MechAssault.

So why do it? Even on just the first page, there were a good dozen problems people brought up with the very idea of it. You guys are talking about a core UI change, something that alters the most fundamental aspects of the game - namely, how a player interacts with it. You can't possibly balance the game competitively at that point, when multiple players are using fundamentally different UIs encouraging/demanding fundamentally different playstyles. And, of course, with each side screaming in bloody rage at the other for being CHEATERS and HAXXORZ and DIRTY 3RD PERSON NOOBS and STUPID 1ST PERSON CODBOTS and whatever else comes up.

You want ideas on how to implement 3rd person view? In all honesty, and speaking as a guy who's played and enjoyed lots of 3rd-person games just like you guys have...I wouldn't. It's a huge kettle of fish that'd cause more issues than it could possibly solve, not least of which is massively increasing your guys' workload by having to balance what will, effectively, become an entirely new and separate game. You'll have MechWarrior Online and MechAssault Online, and believe you me, PGI...nobody wants to play MechAssault Online.

[Radko]

If third person is required to ease the learning curve, then incorporate it into the tutorial but remove it from "high level" play. There's many ways to accomplish this, from adding a reward penalty, to disabling it at high Elo, to making it a tutorial-only feature. ("Now remember, pilot. The external camera won't be available while deployed. When you're actually in the field, we can't go chasing you around with a camera drone.")

That neatly avoids the issue of exploits while accomplishing the goal of making the game more accessable.

[Eddrick]

Socket7, on 22 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Third person view should remove your GUI.

I mean, you're not in your mech if you're in 3rd person view. why should you see your instruments or radar or targeting reticule?

Now you get to chose," do I get to be effective in combat, or have superior vision. "

And you cannot change modes mid map.

This was the same thing I had in mind. Minus the not being able to swich part. I'm not sure how I feel about that. MechWarrior4 had a few 3rd person views. But, you had no information from you instrements. I was ok with that kind. Because, there was very little reason to use 3rd person when all it gave we was a view from outside and no instrements infomation.

[Mystere]

benth, on 22 March 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

They are implementing third person view. They are going to separate queues into who wants to play with what perspective.

By its nature, third person view will be an advantage over first and will encourage poptarting.

Poptarting is what ruined Mechwarrior 4's online play. It is the reason why PGI made such a big deal about MWO being 1st person-only to begin with.

How detailed do you want the details? Camera over left shoulder or right?

The entire purpose for third person is to draw in new players that prefer that view.

They will not give it any disadvantages.

Unless I missed it, where did they say you will see more in 3rd person compared to 1st? What makes you so sure it will be implemented the same as MW4? Why can't what you see in 3PV be exactly the same as what you see in 1PV?

I want details. And so ...

*******************
Bryan,

Why not give some details (i.e. reveal some of your design ideas)? All I am seeing so far in this and prior threads is speculation that it will be done like MW4. Why not at least quiet down this aspect?

Also, assuming 3PV and 1PV will have the same basic capabilities (i.e. seeing the same things), why is there a need to split the community, unless of course there will be advantages?

The devil is in the details, or so they say.

Edited by Mystere, 22 March 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[DrSecretStache]

Someone said that I ought to repost this here, so I shall. Here's my thoughts on 3rd person:

1. make it always available in the training grounds.
2. make it available as an in game uav. It flies above your head, you can't target with it, there is no hud, and red and blue trianges don't appear over enemy mechs. Heck, give it that film grain if you really feel like making it difficult. The uav is retrievable, but can also be shot down really easily. and you only get one.
3. Don't make it a consumable. That would just suck. Really bad. Especially considering that this is pandering to new players.
4. Make the queues seperate.

That's the best I can think of that would accomplish the goal of helping new players get acquanted with the system without giving an edge.

[Paul Inouye]

Mystere, on 22 March 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I think I have missed the implementation details. As such, if someone can give me a link, I will be grateful.

But, if people are crying all over the place without the benefit of those same details, then something is seriously off and I don't think it is on PGI's side.

I've edited the original post to include an inline response I made in this thread... since it's getting to be a big thread, I moved it up to the top. This will give you a general idea of what we've been thinking about but nothing is in concrete yet.

[Socket7]

Wait a minute. We've got all sorts of monitors in our cockpits that display nothing useful at all.

Why cant THEY show a 3rd person camera view?

[Heeden]

Socket7, on 22 March 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Wait a minute. We've got all sorts of monitors in our cockpits that display nothing useful at all.

Why cant THEY show a 3rd person camera view?

Because I'm seriously hoping they use those for gun-cameras so my Cataphracts stop blowing the crap out of every slight hill they wander up.

That said, a 3rd person model showing only your mech would be pretty sweet.

[3ffigy]

Socket7, on 22 March 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Wait a minute. We've got all sorts of monitors in our cockpits that display nothing useful at all.

Why cant THEY show a 3rd person camera view?

This is along the lines of what I am proposing here.

Edited by 3ffigy, 22 March 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Imho, if people want 3rd Person View and its financially viable let them have it.

If they only want to look at themself make the view focus on their mech and blur away anything else.

If they want it as combat view make it optional (at the cost of splitting the playerbase) - you will not be able to make it all to restrictive bcs if you do it wont be used and the People you hope to get wont come.

I dont understand why one would like to use 3rd Person aside of getting tactical advantages as it takes totally away the feeling of being the Pilot of a Mech but ok, thats me.
I would totally understand several different view modes for recorded matches but we havent such a feature.

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 March 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Eddrick]

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

I've edited the original post to include an inline response I made in this thread... since it's getting to be a big thread, I moved it up to the top. This will give you a general idea of what we've been thinking about but nothing is in concrete yet.

I think I can live with the idea. It's simlar to what I had in mind. You get little/no information from the HUD. The locking the camera, pulling the camera in when getting close to an object, keeping LOS rules was a nice touch.

Edited by Eddrick, 22 March 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Mystere]

Paul Inouye, on 22 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

I've edited the original post to include an inline response I made in this thread... since it's getting to be a big thread, I moved it up to the top. This will give you a general idea of what we've been thinking about but nothing is in concrete yet.

Now that's more like it! Thanks a million.

Ok, so far, I see nothing that is cause for concern.

But, why even split up the player base? This is something I am not getting. Based on what has been written into post #1, it shouldn't matter to me what mode other players are using. Am I missing something?

Edited by Mystere, 22 March 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Heeden, on 22 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Because I'm seriously hoping they use those for gun-cameras so my Cataphracts stop blowing the crap out of every slight hill they wander up.

That said, a 3rd person model showing only your mech would be pretty sweet.

Seeing we have the current advanced zoom model because of issues doing pip using the cryengine I'm not to sure how that would ever be implemented.

[Ozric]

posts... vanishing...


Anyway, another thought. Countering 3rd person.

If they go for a toggle option, then the need to counter 3rd person seems logical. UAV drones could be shot down (even targeted?), enhanced imaging could be disrupted (ECM? PPC?), but what if it's simply a camera option? You would need something that genuinely obscures a part of the map, or the entire field of view of a 3PV mech.

Flares: Could be used like flash grenades to blind anyone looking at it when it goes off. Consumable.

Smoke Bomb: Makes a cloud of thick black smoke large enough to hide several mechs for a short time. Consumable.

Both those items would be fun in FPV too, but they would be more important in 3PV games due to the increased LOS. Both these items are also very arcadey of course, but I now believe this sort of thing will become necessary and actually I do want my mechs to be covered in random equipment. Perhaps these sort of items would come with visual upgrades to the chassis when they are equipped?

[Mazzyplz]

mechassault online is taking shape!

Ozric, on 22 March 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

posts... vanishing...


Anyway, another thought. Countering 3rd person.

If they go for a toggle option, then the need to counter 3rd person seems logical. UAV drones could be shot down (even targeted?), enhanced imaging could be disrupted (ECM? PPC?), but what if it's simply a camera option? You would need something that genuinely obscures a part of the map, or the entire field of view of a 3PV mech.

Flares: Could be used like flash grenades to blind anyone looking at it when it goes off. Consumable.

Smoke Bomb: Makes a cloud of thick black smoke large enough to hide several mechs for a short time. Consumable.

Both those items would be fun in FPV too, but they would be more important in 3PV games due to the increased LOS. Both these items are also very arcadey of course, but I now believe this sort of thing will become necessary and actually I do want my mechs to be covered in random equipment. Perhaps these sort of items would come with visual upgrades to the chassis when they are equipped?