358 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

I just hate that, once again, boating is the only way to get any mileage out of LRM.

[Hauser]

For 5 tons, ignoring ammo and heatsinks I used to get:

LRM10 = 18 damage spread out over mech (~2 damage per section), with a chance to duck at long range and no effect under 180 meter.
Large Laser = 7 damage, focused on one or two body parts ~3.5 damage per section, usable with los.

Why is this so imbalanced?

[MadPanda]

BillyM, on 22 March 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

...bringing his full armament to bear, he scratched your armor to yellow while you effectively removed him from the match (destroyed 3of5 weapons and nearly cored). You are using this as an arguement for LRM's being underpowered?

It's clearly shown and told by me that he lost his armor only in the CT. You continue making an argument that I destroyed 3 of his weapons with this hit. We all know you can't destroy an item/weapon without first stripping the armor from that location. Which mech can equip 3 weapons on his CT? There is none because there is only 2 free critical slots available so at most you can have 2 weapons in there. Now his internals and "being removed from the match", have you played this game? Yellow internals means he has hardly taken any damage to his internals, and he is far from "removed from the match" or "nearly cored".

I wrote all that to point out how you didn't pay any attention to details and made a jackass clueless ignorant trollish comment, just like so many before you, but I reply to you because you seem to think you made a solid point while the others know they are just trolling. Your post leaks like swizz cheese. And to close up my post, I will reveal the mystery of the "red weapons" (already said in previous post but I'll repeat, its a long thread), he is running 3xUAC5 and they are all jammed and thus "red".

[Drenzul]

I play both LRM boats and brawlers and this looks about fine.

So my 60 aLRM stalker has to put 3-4 volleys into a heavy to kill it? Sounds about right.

[ThePhoenix007]

Jerod Drekmor, on 21 March 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Try to read patch notes and dev post.... they didnt buff lrms, they made corections on leg dmg and splash dmg....with then some things get f up....and calm down its game.

Look at his tag, he spent a lot of money for founders, and who knows how much in MC. I can understand him being upset. However, I believe he doesn't understand the development process and that sometimes things take time or bugs don't come out in the wash. No amount of testing is going to reveal every bug, sometimes you just have to release it and fix as people find them.

[Arnold Carns]

MadPanda, on 21 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Above you can see me running a 5x LRM20 Stalker. That's 100 LRM's shot at once. My target is unsuspecting cataprach, a very juicy target for any LRM boat. He is nearly max health (like 95%, little scrathes, all armor near max). I unleash the barrage of 100 LRM's right into his face at optimal range of about 300m. And to raise up the stakes even more, he is actually walking towards me with his massive front chest directed right at my lrm's.

Expectations; this is the biggest mistake of his puny life.

Result: He lost his center torso armor and his CT internals are at yellow. His left/right torso are now at orange armor.

I'll let you decide if LRM's are still worth keeping around.

You assume that any of your missiles did hit the target which is a bit too confident. In the boardgame, from a LRM20 an average of only 12 will hit the target (and only 6 in the worst case). Of theese 60 (30) Missiles hitting most likely the target you'd also had to subtract another 1-6 missiles if the target wears AMS (an average of 3). At last, LRMs will hit a certain location in clusters of 5. So of your average 57 hitting missiles that would spread over 11 hit Locations which will suffer 5 damage and 1 that takes the remaining 2. A fully armored Cataphract has 68 armor on CT, each 44 on RT/LT and RA/LA, and each 60 on RL/LL, for a total of 384 armor. Even if all your missiles would have hit, assuming that you'd take it down in one salvo is a little overconfident at best, shortsighted and ignorant at worst. From a boardgame point of view your LRMs work as intended. Nothing wrong with them, nothing to see here... move along. Thanks!

[Fut]

You know what would be great?
If the Devs piped up regarding LRMs, and let us all know if they are supposed to be a "Support Weapon" or just a "Weapon" like everything else. That would help curb a lot of these arguments.

I realize that the current state of LRMs is a temp fix, and they'll be getting a slight tweak/buff soon enough - but all that's going to do is swing the conversation back the other way so we see all the "LRMs are OP" threads again. So we really need the Devs to tell us what they have in mind for these things. (If they have made posts regarding this, my apologies - I have not seen it. Kindly link to it for us).

The way I think LRMs would be the most fun, is if they were just slightly more powerful than they are at the moment. This would mean that they work well as "Support Weapons" when fired in-directly, but when you get LOS and add Artemis and TAG you get a decent weapon that can actually go toe to toe with the other weapons.

I've seen the comparison made of an LRM15 being roughly equivalent to a Medium Laser (based on TT), and that their current damage puts them in line with that. That's great, but there's a few things that should be considered as well; like the Audio/Visual warning players get when LRMs are fired at them (not in TT), the slow flight time of the missiles themselves (from my recollection, this also was not an issue in TT), the fact that ECM negates them completely (unless you equip other gear, or get into the sweat spot ~200m), and the fact that AMS exists solely to protect from LRM.

With all that considered, is a single LRM15 as effective as a single Medium Laser? From my point of view, not quite.

Some of you will say that the fact that these things can be shot in-directly makes up for the things I listed. But from my experience it doesn't, because shooting them from great distance (~800m or farther) usually results in very minimal hits.

Anyhow, what I'm getting at, is that I think they need a slight increase in damage from their current state.

[MadPanda]

Arnold Carns, on 22 March 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

From a boardgame point of view your LRMs work as intended. Nothing wrong with them, nothing to see here... move along. Thanks!

And from a card game point of view as I'm on a stalker and he is on a cataphract, I outweight him by 15tons so I'm a Full House and he is a Flush so I should crush him without any contest. Nothing wrong there from a poker card game point of view, working as intented. Nothing to see here, move along, thanks!

[Anton Shiningstar]

Do you really want to be told that? I for one enjoy thinking for myself. LRMs are a weapon. If you want to use them as support good. If you want to use them as your primary weapons do it.

[MN03]

Using LRMs on a map like River city is just a nightmare. It's epic how you shoot at someone and all he has to do is take 2 steps forward/backward and hide behind a building. People who say that LRMs are fine have not tried them for more than 1 match. Just spectate a LRM user and see how "OP" it is. Ballistics/large lasers are doing more ranged damage than "longe" range missiles.

[hammerreborn]

MadPanda, on 22 March 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

It's clearly shown and told by me that he lost his armor only in the CT. You continue making an argument that I destroyed 3 of his weapons with this hit. We all know you can't destroy an item/weapon without first stripping the armor from that location. Which mech can equip 3 weapons on his CT? There is none because there is only 2 free critical slots available so at most you can have 2 weapons in there. Now his internals and "being removed from the match", have you played this game? Yellow internals means he has hardly taken any damage to his internals, and he is far from "removed from the match" or "nearly cored".

I wrote all that to point out how you didn't pay any attention to details and made a jackass clueless ignorant trollish comment, just like so many before you, but I reply to you because you seem to think you made a solid point while the others know they are just trolling. Your post leaks like swizz cheese. And to close up my post, I will reveal the mystery of the "red weapons" (already said in previous post but I'll repeat, its a long thread), he is running 3xUAC5 and they are all jammed and thus "red".

You're arguing hitting CT internals in a single shot "not close to cored" and he's the one trolling? And you can clearly see every single section of his armor light up. Not to mention he also had AMS, and you didn't use TAG or artemis, yet you still managed at least 100 damage in a single shot.

What the hell are you complaining about? I just don't understand. Not taking advantage of any of the tracking (and therefore damage) buffs you pretty much obliterated someone in 3 seconds tops. Oh lordy it might take 6 damage to kill a heavy now, how ever will you ******* survive. Oh right, because you can fire all 100 of those missiles from behind cover.

This is the worst cry thread in the history of cry threads.

[Fut]

Anton Shiningstar, on 22 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Do you really want to be told that? I for one enjoy thinking for myself. LRMs are a weapon. If you want to use them as support good. If you want to use them as your primary weapons do it.

No, I don't want to be told that personally.
I just think the whole "LRMS are SUPPORT ONLY" argument is silly, and a quick note from the Devs might put a stop to it.

I'm fine with discussing the weapons and stuff, but people seem to think that "LRMS are for SUPPORT" is enough of a comment to end the debate.

That's all I was getting at.

[stjobe]

Fut, on 22 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

The way I think LRMs would be the most fun, is if they were just slightly more powerful than they are at the moment. This would mean that they work well as "Support Weapons" when fired in-directly, but when you get LOS and add Artemis and TAG you get a decent weapon that can actually go toe to toe with the other weapons.

LRMs would be most fun (for me, I hasten to add) if they were just another weapon on a varied arsenal mounted on a 'mech, i.e. if they were "just another weapon".

One of the problems with MWO as I see it is that there's too much to gain from boating a single weapon system, something that was *very* unusual in the BattleTech Universe. Most 'mechs had a varied loadout, including both long-range and short-range weaponry, so that they could be somewhat effective no matter what the engagement turned out to be.

I'd love to see more varied and mixed loadouts, but as long as it's more effective to boat a single weapon system, that's what people will do.

[Roland]

MadPanda, on 22 March 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

And from a card game point of view as I'm on a stalker and he is on a cataphract, I outweight him by 15tons so I'm a Full House and he is a Flush so I should crush him without any contest.

Is this seriously even what you want?
I mean, do you honestly want to play a game where you could just obliterate his mech, despite the fact that you essentially did nothing besides hold your aiming reticle generally in his direction, and pull the trigger?

If weapons that don't require any aiming could just kill every mech in the game in one shot (like they did earlier this week), then no one would use anything else (like earlier this week).

That's not really the game you want to play, is it?

Presumably, you don't just run missile boats every game, and thus aren't interested in making the game entirely into missiles.

[Hauser]

Thontor, on 22 March 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

Because it wasn't 18 damage.. It was 18 damage PLUS splash damage... So it ended up being closer to 50 damage

Also.. Not spread all over the mech... Clearly concentrated on the CT

Weapon Matches Fired Hit Accuracy Time Equip. Damage
LRM 20 49 14,320 4,887 34.13% 04:17:37 7,877

I'm not seeing the effects of splash damage when I look at my stats. I haven't used the LRM20 since the patch. The 4,887 missiles that hit did 7,877 damage, or 1.6 damage per missile.

Though I would agree that missiles are too focused, but I'm not seeing the extra damage.

edit:


LRM 15 81 44,445 16,366 36.82% 06:43:54 35,460

LRM15's I have used before and after the patch, they do 2.1 damage per missile. Since I do get more kills with these I would assume this also includes ammo explosions.

It doesn't show splash damage. That should show up with both launchers.

Edited by Hauser, 22 March 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Anton Shiningstar, on 22 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Do you really want to be told that? I for one enjoy thinking for myself. LRMs are a weapon. If you want to use them as support good. If you want to use them as your primary weapons do it.

What's wrong with this argument? LRM boats in canon are considered the support mechs of the game. Arguing that they aren't "support" is like saying because Jenners and Ravens close to <270 to inflict maximum damage they are brawlers like an Atlas.

LRMS are support because you're supposed to use them to "support" your team, they give you pretty red boxes, you make pretty red boxes go away.

[BillyM]

MadPanda, on 22 March 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

It's clearly shown and told by me that he lost his armor only in the CT. You continue making an argument that I destroyed 3 of his weapons with this hit. We all know you can't destroy an item/weapon without first stripping the armor from that location. Which mech can equip 3 weapons on his CT? There is none because there is only 2 free critical slots available so at most you can have 2 weapons in there. Now his internals and "being removed from the match", have you played this game? Yellow internals means he has hardly taken any damage to his internals, and he is far from "removed from the match" or "nearly cored".

I wrote all that to point out how you didn't pay any attention to details and made a jackass clueless ignorant trollish comment, just like so many before you, but I reply to you because you seem to think you made a solid point while the others know they are just trolling. Your post leaks like swizz cheese. And to close up my post, I will reveal the mystery of the "red weapons" (already said in previous post but I'll repeat, its a long thread), he is running 3xUAC5 and they are all jammed and thus "red".

My mistake on the UAC's (hard to tell with the small video post). That said, the fact stands you need only one more half-salvo and you've killed him. Doesn't seem too terrible to me.

Lastly, I take offense at your tone. I understand you getting all "fired-up" but please watch the accusations and wording. You are leaning up on the e-table and yelling at an otherwise civil conversation which I find unnecessary and childish. Afraid of the trolls? You-sir invite them. I won't be partaking in your threads here-forward. Good-day.

--billyM

[Butane9000]

I have to disagree. Boating 100 LRMs on a Stalker is not longer the meta game. And that's a good thing.

No more instant death when you walk out into the open. It's still a poor idea to do, but it won't literally kill you.

[Ngamok]

karish, on 21 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I put 210 lrm into a spider and not a single arm leg was torn away it turn laughed and then ran off my founders Cat is now worthless and going on the shelf

? Fast mechs could always out run the LRMs. And guaranteed you didn't hit the Spider with 210 LRMs and didn't kill it.

Edited by Ngamok, 22 March 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[Fut]

Thontor, on 22 March 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

River City should be less than ideal for LRMs... Even if they did a million damage per missile people could still "just take 2 steps forward/backward" and avoid the damage altogether.

As long as They do enough damage so that people feel they cant just ignore them and they need to take those couple steps into cover... Then they are working just fine.

This is actually a really good point, quite logical too.

In your opinion, Thontor, are LRMs proper in their current state, or could they use a small tweak still? If a tweak is needed, in your opinion, what would the tweak be?