211 replies to this topic

[Kaspirikay]

ITT: many truths

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Oy of MidWorld, on 23 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I wrote this up before, i'm not going to write it all again, so i'll just copy and paste:

What you've actually made, what you've achieved is a thinking man's shooter. It is excellent in its own way. But it doesn't fit in with your target demographic. I'ts aready much to complex, tactical and excellent to appeal to a casual action gamer. That just being the core gameplay. Too many variables for people who do not want to put up with understanding them.

But then there's people who want to. Focus on the one thing and do it right, and you'll have a growing playerbase of people who want to play a thinking man's shooter. Who come here for exactly this experience.

And it's not just us grognards. We have some new players in our ranks without any BattleTech background whatsoever. After a few weeks they knew more about hardpoint setups strenghts/weaknesses than i'll ever care to. One even got hooked to the novels... Now what did we do? We showed them the ropes in a 4-man, explaining the game.

You really need to make a tutorial, and that's it.

normally not a fan of the copy/paste solution for stuff like this... but yes... agreed.

[Noobzorz]

. . . what?

How in god's name does "male action gamer looking for a little bit more than your average shooter" entail gamers 15-25+, and how the **** does that bracket differ substantially (given your + designation) from 20-45+?

This is the most unfathomably stupid thing I have seen, and it is an embarrassment that it is so well liked. Yes, you're 20-45. Me too. Don't like this cloying and ******** nonsense just because it says "I AM NOT A TEENAGER."

Kaspirikay, on 23 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

ITT: many truths

ITT: no truths at all. Just a big circlejerk as everyone congratulates themselves on not playing Call of Duty.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Noobzorz, on 23 March 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

. . . what?

How in god's name does "male action gamer looking for a little bit more than your average shooter" entail gamers 15-25+, and how the **** does that bracket differ substantially (given your + designation) from 20-45+?

This is the most unfathomably stupid thing I have seen, and it is an embarrassment that it is so well liked. Yes, you're 20-45. Me too. Don't like this cloying and ******** nonsense just because it says "I AM NOT A TEENAGER."

It's a marketing thing. you know metrics and user bases and research... there's an entire business apon which is based on figuring out product demographics and the like.

The fact of the matter is "male action gamer" in "marketing" terms is 15-20. with room up or down.

[Soy]

Lol Jade I remember making this post before the holidays and people thinking it's dumb. They still do.

I suggest taking a break if you're getting burned out man.

[valkyrie]

Noobzorz, on 23 March 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

How in god's name does "male action gamer looking for a little bit more than your average shooter" entail gamers 15-25+, and how the **** does that bracket differ substantially (given your + designation) from 20-45+?

I'm not sure how it differentiates there, but I'll point this out: MWO does require a relatively decent PC to play on. Most people who are not in that second age bracket or in the "overlap" area between the two are usually not able to afford a high-enough quality PC to play MWO with decent performance, due to being in college/being unemployed/etc.

Whether or not that says anything of relevance is up for discussion, but it's just something I've noticed. I'm 23, and wouldn't have been even remotely capable of buying/building something that could run MWO until I got my "real job" (i.e., not working at Gamestop for minimum wage) last year.

[Noobzorz]

Jade Kitsune, on 23 March 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

It's a marketing thing. you know metrics and user bases and research... there's an entire business apon which is based on figuring out product demographics and the like.

The fact of the matter is "male action gamer" in "marketing" terms is 15-20. with room up or down.

No, no. You misunderstand. I'm well aware of how marketing metrics function. From seeing you write about them, almost certainly more familiar with them than you. That's not an insult to you personally, but your post that I'm quoting from is totally stupid, however clever you may be.

The fact of the matter is that "male action gamer" is "marketing" teams is unequivocally NOT equivalent to saying 15-20. Period. Full stop. End of discussion. I mean, for **** sake man, he talks about flight sims in the very next sentence. It is not a technical term he used, and a bunch of vague nonsense has been applied to it.

What has been done here is put a bunch of words in his mouth that are absolutely and categorically not what he said. This whole thread sounds like a bunch of people who have heard business discussed on reddit before talking about the definitive direction for MWO, and you would all be embarrassed if you were qualified enough to understand how ridiculous you sound.

Edited by Noobzorz, 23 March 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Ignatz22]

Noobzorz, on 23 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

No, no. You misunderstand. I'm well aware of how marketing metrics function. From seeing you write about them, almost certainly more familiar with them than you. That's not an insult to you personally, but your post that I'm quoting from is totally stupid, however clever you may be.

The fact of the matter is that "male action gamer" is "marketing" teams is unequivocally NOT equivalent to saying 15-20. Period. Full stop. End of discussion. I mean, for **** sake man, he talks about flight sims in the very next sentence. It is not a technical term he used, and a bunch of vague nonsense has been applied to it.

What has been done here is put a bunch of words in his mouth that are absolutely and categorically not what he said. This whole thread sounds like a bunch of people who have heard business discussed on reddit before talking about the definitive direction for MWO, and you would all be embarrassed if you were qualified enough to understand how ridiculous you sound.

COOL! SAY you're not insulting him, then insult him by noting what he SAYS is "Totally Stupid". That is SO not insulting! I wonder if someone told YOU that nothing you assert without substantiation is of any value, but your mother loves you, so, well, that's SOMETHING...

[Forestal]

FunkyFritter, on 23 March 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

I disagree. The primary draw of mechwarrior has always been piloting a giant mech and using it's big guns to blow off pieces of other mechs, that's something that certainly appeals to younger audiences. The current demographic is older because the franchise has had such a sorry showing recently. Most of us are here because we got into battletech years ago. we weren't 40 back then.

Wait-- why have you gone on to talk about Hawken?

What-- you're still talking about Mechwarrior: Online? Okay, I see you are just as confused as the Devs are about its target demographic...


Aside from specifics like the age range, income status, etc., the target demographic for MWO (at least from closed beta) are Mech-Engineer wannabes-- see one of my favorite threads: http://mwomercs.com/...etech-engineer/

IOW, the reason for having any debate at all over "Game/ Build/ Weapon/ etc. Balance" in MWO arises from the battlefield SIMULATION nature of its gameplay-- I mean, nobody bats an eyelid over the "balance" of force fields, holograms, repair drones or whatever crazy game-mechanic they implement in Hawken, because that is exactly they are: merely "game-mechanics" for an INSTA-ACTION game.


Not that there's anything wrong with Hawken-- 10 years ago I would have been playing Hawken and not even giving Mechwarrior a FIRST look ("why waste time on heat-weight management instead of pew-pew?!").... Not that there's anything to do with age, income, etc.-- but 10 years ago I just happened to be in the market for INSTA-ACTION, and now I'm not even giving Hawken a second look ("what are *magic* repair drones doing in a sci-fi/mech setting?!") cos I am now in the market for battlefield SIMULATION.

The fact that the same person can be in (or switch between) 2 different markets has caused some people to mis-characterize the target demographic for ANY mech-related game as anyone who likes "Violent Giant Robots Stomping"-- no, just no, you are looking at a subset of that demographic who's into gaming at all, and then a subset of that demographic who play your kinds of games... just like the fact the market for fantasy fiction is not the market for fantasy games, which is not the market for fantasy video games.


Buts what's most telling to me is the Devs' refusal to make "Deathmatch" Game Mode a priority in order to avoid "segmenting/fragmenting" the player base (http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry2112314)... when what they are doing is trying to "capture/cement" an ALREADY segmented/fragmented market-- namely,

1) the demographic for INSTA-ACTION who (switching quite readily from Tribes: Ascend to Team Fortress 2) strongly discriminates between game-modes/ play-styles (arcade/ battle-arena/ etc.) but NOT settings (sci-fi/ fantasy/ etc.)

2) the demographic for battlefield SIMULATION (the "design/plan-a-mech/squad" crowd) who strongly discriminates between settings (must be internally coherent, or "balanced", as per rules for fiction) but NOT between game-modes/ play-styles (anything from missions to deathmatch is acceptable, as long as it is internally coherent or "fits" with the setting ).

3) the particular demographic who straddles both 1) & 2)

TL;DR: I'll be surprised if the Devs can do it-- and kudos to them for trying-- but it seems that they are only capturing/cementing group 3) above... and hoping that can sustain MWO.

Edited by Forestal, 24 March 2013 - 09:01 PM.

[Galenit]

The main problem with demographics i see is,
that the older players (i count to them) look for a good game thats not that simple,
but the younger ones have never played a real challenging game.

Look at the games 25 or 20 years ago, no respawns, no selfhealing, no this or that.
Most players never saw the end of the old games, they were to challenging.
Today you must be blind and dumb as .... if you not see the end of a game.

Some modern games have a hardcoremode. The old games had only one mode ....
Guess witch it was?

[Gremlich Johns]

Hmmm, what demographic is being courted by PGI?

I submit ALL of them.

The game attracted me with the implied promise of a game fun to play with no 3rd person view (which would keep the playing field level) and controls, weapons and balancing which could improve the gameplay of prior MW titles - things that would finally make sense reality wise (like real life physics to a reasonable degree). There was also the promise of gaming with other players who did not abuse each other too much, at least not like the abuse one hears on EVE, CoD, MW-3, Battlefield whatever. The MW gaming community over the years has usually been a fairly even keeled group.

I supported PGI by purchasing the Legendary Founder's Pack. I thought (and still do think) that it was a good expenditure of my available cash.

What I have seen issued for the game since has limited my monetary outlay to that amount and no more. Why?

It is less than my expectations, but more than I want it to be.

The idea that they need to make EVERY demographic happy is a seriously flawed business practice. But, is it really their fault?

What you like, I may not, and it may be because of playing style (twitch, which I abhor) or canon or even reality (I've shot big bullets (105mm and 152mm) shot missiles from a tank and I've actually used ECM. I've been in a combat zone.) I cannot expect PGI to know how I feel about the game any more than I can expect them to know what the countless masses think.

I don't need to use MC to enjoy myself and do not think ill of others for doing so. Their choice. Will PGI ever reach a happy medium? At this point, the jury is out, but I wish them luck. Gamers are a peculiar bunch and are never, as a group, pleased with any one game. My age? it is a tad north above the 45 year old upper limit others have posted. I've been able to hold my own in a game I so far enjoy. That's enough for me - coolant flush or no.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 24 March 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Soy, on 23 March 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Lol Jade I remember making this post before the holidays and people thinking it's dumb. They still do.

I suggest taking a break if you're getting burned out man.

there's no getting burned out at this point Soy.

just another 2 months, and then i walk away, i'm riding out my premium at this point, and fighting the good fight against stupid decisions and a company's lies.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 23 March 2013 - 07:24 PM.

[Vahnn]

I want to love this game so bad. So bad. You have no idea how badly I want this game to work. I (somehow) missed out on the Founder's program, so to make up for it, I've made a few MC purchases. Was happy to do so.

But now I'm starting to see how PGI is failing MWO.

Had I purchased a Founder's package based on promises and a highlighted plan by PGI, I think I would be pretty pissed. I can't be mad about my MC purchases, because I was never promised anything or led to believe anything about the game before spending my money. But I do regret it. I have over 2 weeks of premium time burning away because I simply do not even want to play this game anymore.

Oh well. Star Citizen is 1-2 years away.

[Roadbeer]

Ok, now I'm starting to get embarrassed that it was my question that started this thread. Many of you are putting words in Bryan's mouth that are either blatantly false, or based off of something that you picked up in freshman "Introduction to Economics 101".

I admit I was trying to back him into the corner with that question, but to his credit he did answer it, albeit he did it in the safest way possible... I'm even amazed he used the word "Male". His answer basically included everyone from my girlfriends 15 year old son to my father who passed away last year at 73 who enjoyed flight simulators.

Y'all want drama, there are many threads about 3rd person you can pile on... this one, however, I've lost the taste for.

[Teralitha]

Davers, on 21 March 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

They still have time to deliver. I believe it was mentioned that the first CW info is coming out in April/May? We can judge then.

Having this game appeal to people who like good games is more important than having this game just appeal to BT fans.

Im not a BT fan, and I prefer good games over bad games. MWO so far, has proven to be a bad game(in beta) Maybe when its out of beta it will be a good game. But from what I have seen, they are not going to succeed without the help AND ideas/feedback from its core community.

Edited by Teralitha, 23 March 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I didn't hear about this game until late last year, and didn'y get the opportunity to do a founders package, but after reading the goals, of the time, I quickly invested $400.00 and began working on my mechs.

And then it came...

Magic stuff (makes no sense in a game with such a degree of thought and percision in mech design).

3rd Person View.... where's the challenge, the fear, the anxiety? It just makes it boring to me.

I stopped spending money too.

Everything in this game that is part of mech design, save software related, pilot enhancements, in my opinion, should be something tangible, that can be blown up, take space, etc..

And in combat related matches, 3rd person view should never be implimented. It just takes too much away from the immersion, the suspense, and feel of the game.

I am 47, played them all, from the first pen and paper, but I am not a canon rule book person, just of a character that feels that maybe, just maybe, there might be a game here that is makes you feel like your really there.

When the mech shakes, the sounds, the explosions, from a third-person perspective would be a joke.

And the coolant thing, has nothing to do with advantage in my book, it is about that magic feel. It feels too sorcery like.

Even artilery should be some form of nav module, maybe that is what the command council can be used for.

This just sucks. But I will get my money's worth and still play, in hopes.

[Sadist Cain]

age out of the picture here...

TLDR: QUALITY OVER QUANTITY

Bryan,

The fundemental flaw in believing that you can create a game which will appeal to those who play Call of Duty and Flight Sims is that in the vast majority of cases, people who play CoD, TF2 etc. do not play Flight sims and people who play flight sims do not play CoD and TF2 style games.

this is because the gameplay between the two is so radically different that if you prefer one extreme, you simply aren't as interested in the other, anything that tries to saddle between the two will have an extremely hard time appealing to both genres as they simply do not mesh, products that try usually turn out bland for both parties they're aiming to please.

This dosn't mean all people who play flight sims are boring and all who play arcade shooters are idiots...
of course the line can be blurred between the two however you can't ever forget about you original core demographic you were aiming for.

The thinking mans shooter.

I'd never even heard of battletech before MWO so I'm not in that box.
you'd say I was a simmer, though my main game was Project Reality (BF2 mod). I highly recommend you play it as it's a fantastic example of a demographic shift towards a heavily community influenced game, teamwork oriented and without compromise aimed specifically at those who found games like BF2, CoD, TF2, Counterstrike etc. too arcady/not "hardcore" enough.
As a mod it would outrank the number of players on servers compared to vanilla BF2 when there was a new version. I helped in running a community that saw a meteoric rise from a 32player server to four 64 player servers and 700 members. 50,000 players a month on our servers alone, we ran tournaments with 100's of players, community events, and several gaming parties with dozens coming from across the globe, norway, sweden, america, germany, italy, The british army themselves owned and ran their own semi official servers...

My point is 99.99% of these people played the game because it WASN'T trying to cater for both ends of the spectrum, if we wanted CoD we'd play CoD.
if I want Hawken, I'll play Hawken/WoT/TF2 etc.

I realise the goal was to make an action game but in this franchise you have inherited a very speicific type of player but;
There needs to be more consideration to the core Demographic of players, which in the case Of Battletech, Mechwarrior, and those looking for a "thinking mans shooter" Largely consists of those who aren't interested in arcade style fluff for the sake of having something that is different, more involving, more intense and more in depth than your average shooter of this day.

For this we will pay you every spare dime we have, there will be storys written and videos made, songs a plenty and a truly united playerbase who are all here for the same reason and for the same game.
Trying to fracture that potential playerbase for sake of expanding your proposed demographic into other areas is illogical.

You'll only end up watering down the end product in effort to please everyones tastes. Focus on your core group of players and your core demographic and expanding that, Create the best mech game they're after and I promise you that the players will come from everywhere to try this well defined flavour of gameplay because it isn't trying to be the everymans game theyve played 1000's of times.

[Mystere]

Roadbeer, on 23 March 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Ok, now I'm starting to get embarrassed that it was my question that started this thread. Many of you are putting words in Bryan's mouth that are either blatantly false, or based off of something that you picked up in freshman "Introduction to Economics 101".

I admit I was trying to back him into the corner with that question, but to his credit he did answer it, albeit he did it in the safest way possible... I'm even amazed he used the word "Male". His answer basically included everyone from my girlfriends 15 year old son to my father who passed away last year at 73 who enjoyed flight simulators.

Y'all want drama, there are many threads about 3rd person you can pile on... this one, however, I've lost the taste for.

Simply being embarrassed is not enough. I think you should be deeply ashamed for causing all of this.

Edited by Mystere, 23 March 2013 - 09:39 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Noobzorz, on 23 March 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

. . . what?

How in god's name does "male action gamer looking for a little bit more than your average shooter" entail gamers 15-25+, and how the **** does that bracket differ substantially (given your + designation) from 20-45+?

This is the most unfathomably stupid thing I have seen, and it is an embarrassment that it is so well liked. Yes, you're 20-45. Me too. Don't like this cloying and ******** nonsense just because it says "I AM NOT A TEENAGER."



ITT: no truths at all. Just a big circlejerk as everyone congratulates themselves on not playing Call of Duty.

AND PGI doesnt want female gamers but lol no sexism there right?

[John Norad]

zverofaust, on 21 March 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Here's an unfortunate reality I'm sure you'll vehemently deny: Basing the financial future and security of PGI on a handful of aging fanmen isn't going to work. You can't just squat over a toilet and push out whatever crap you want and slap a Mechwarrior label on it, even if there will be people who embrace it simply for that label. What you need is a game that's actually fun, takes risks and brings something new to the table.

First you say that catering to the hardcore players won't work and then that the game needs to take risks and bring something new to the table.
That doesn't make sense.
Doing what the old fart hardcore fans want would actually mean a risk, since most of them don't want yet another generic casual shooter. This also means it would be something new (or old) - a borderline hardcore simulation combat game. Something that hasn't been around for quite some time.

Let's hope PGI has success with what they're doing. Because I know I'll be there and gloat over the result of stupid decisions and fanboys backing them. If they fail.