211 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

malibu43, on 25 March 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

PGI stating that their target market is males is not sexist. That is just ridiculous.

Matel's target market for Barbie dolls is probably females. Is that sexist? Should they start marketing to boys as well, even though a it will be a complete waste of money?

Your post is a great example of political correctness gone wrong.

Wrong, there should be no "male or female" distinction, ESPECIALLY with gaming, and within all media frankly. That's old, archaic thinking that's nothing but a poison.

Why can't a woman enjoy Mechwarrior? Why does it have to be "Male action gamer" huh? why can't it just be "Action Gamer"?

There was literally, absolutely 0 point in saying "male" in that bit. 0 zip nadda.

Darius Deadeye, on 25 March 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

I am 28 years old, have spent plenty of money (80$ +) and would willingly spend a hell of a lot more.

The only reason I haven't spent any money for some time (though there are things I'd like!), is exactly as the op points out, a lack of "noteworthy" content, rumours of 3rd person and their interest in catering a "fictive" target group as opposed to the core players being fans of the franchise.

I'll still play, just not pay, untill I feel secure that my INVESTMENT will pay off.

The problem is, if you keep playing Darius... you = content.

Free players in F2P games are content, you're the thing the paying players fight against. sure they fight eachother at times too, but you're additional cannon fodder.

while on the plus side, you extend the life of the game, you also validate what the company has chosen to do.

[Mercules]

malibu43, on 25 March 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

PGI stating that their target market is males is not sexist. That is just ridiculous.

Matel's target market for Barbie dolls is probably females. Is that sexist? Should they start marketing to boys as well, even though a it will be a complete waste of money?

Your post is a great example of political correctness gone wrong.

It is sexist, that doesn't mean it is not true, but it is sexist. They market one set of toys as "boy toys" and another as "girl toys" and spread sexism to yet another generation. At least they have Computer Engineer Barbie now showing that she can be more than a Vet, Supermodel, and such.

However there really wasn't a point to saying the Demographic is "male" in any sense. Male is very specific while "Action Gamer" is less. Leaving the import part of the demographic open to interpretation then compounding it by naming what is mostly an opposite of that, but then using a specific gender means they probably don't have a good definition of their demographic.

[malibu43]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Wrong, there should be no "male or female" distinction, ESPECIALLY with gaming, and within all media frankly. That's old, archaic thinking that's nothing but a poison.

Why can't a woman enjoy Mechwarrior? Why does it have to be "Male action gamer" huh? why can't it just be "Action Gamer"?

There was literally, absolutely 0 point in saying "male" in that bit. 0 zip nadda.

You seem to have no idea how marketing works. There is a male/female distinction because males are (probably, or at least according to PGI's data) more likely to be interested in this game. I am not saying a female can't enjoy mechwarrior. PGI isn't saying that either. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

It is a fact that different products appeal to males more than females or females more than males. Fact. Not opinion. It is not an archaic way of thinking. It is a real world fact. As a business, you need to know who the biggest potential sources of revenue are and those are the markets you go after.

I don't have PGI's market research data, but I'd be willing to be A LOT of my own money that MWO stands to make a lot more money off of males than females.

[malibu43]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

It is sexist, that doesn't mean it is not true, but it is sexist.

Fair enough. In the original post I think it was used in a very negative way, and I was mostly trying to point out that there was no reason to view it as such a negative thing.

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

They market one set of toys as "boy toys" and another as "girl toys" and spread sexism to yet another generation. At least they have Computer Engineer Barbie now showing that she can be more than a Vet, Supermodel, and such.

As a father of a 2 year old boy, and someone who has friends and relatives with kids of varying ages and gender, I can tell you that everything I've seen points to boys and girls (for the most part) being interested in different things. It is not "evil sexist marketing." It is just part of their nature.

Now whether or not the barbies are presented in a way to perpetuate sexist stereotypes is a separate issue. I'm just saying that in general, that type of product will appeal to one gender more than the other.

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

However there really wasn't a point to saying the Demographic is "male" in any sense. Male is very specific while "Action Gamer" is less. Leaving the import part of the demographic open to interpretation then compounding it by naming what is mostly an opposite of that, but then using a specific gender means they probably don't have a good definition of their demographic.

Sure. I think the term male is largely unimportant in terms of this discussion. The real question is the "Action Gamer" part. But I wasn't the one who initially brought the "male" thing up.

[mekabuser]

I dont get it.
The combat is good. The feel ofthe mechs is great imo.
This is the vast majority of what is necessary for mwo to succeed.achieved.

THey need dfa/collisions and melee done PROPERLY>.. Not some crap, not some variation on what we had before.. Its an essential aspect of the game and combat and should be programmed properly..
Hell NAscar 2000 my first computer game modeled collisions fairly well and thats going on 15 years ago.

THey need voip which is otw from what i understand. game modes/12v12 and CW..
THose are the main things.. THey do that properly and it will attract any and every dude and or chick who <really >likes to blow things up.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

malibu43, on 25 March 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

You seem to have no idea how marketing works. There is a male/female distinction because males are (probably, or at least according to PGI's data) more likely to be interested in this game. I am not saying a female can't enjoy mechwarrior. PGI isn't saying that either. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

It is a fact that different products appeal to males more than females or females more than males. Fact. Not opinion. It is not an archaic way of thinking. It is a real world fact. As a business, you need to know who the biggest potential sources of revenue are and those are the markets you go after.

I don't have PGI's market research data, but I'd be willing to be A LOT of my own money that MWO stands to make a lot more money off of males than females.

ok fine, but why mention it, why even make a gender distinction like that? WHAT IS THE POINT BEING MADE BY THE USAGE?!

there is none... there was no point to using gender distinction.

malibu43, on 25 March 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Sure. I think the term male is largely unimportant in terms of this discussion. The real question is the "Action Gamer" part. But I wasn't the one who initially brought the "male" thing up.

How is this the question... Mechwarrior is an action experience... it always has been.

[Thorn Hallis]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 March 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

So you're already gaining people outside of your "target demographic."

Which is totally unheard of.

[LordBraxton]

I cant believe they are pushing third person, they even stated they aren't willing to negotiate about it.

[malibu43]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

ok fine, but why mention it, why even make a gender distinction like that? WHAT IS THE POINT BEING MADE BY THE USAGE?! there is none... there was no point to using gender distinction.

Are you hung up on the wording they used? People keep asking questions about their target market, so they told us. Their target market is male action gamers. If that is what their target market is, why should that not have been exactly what their answer is?

Or are you questioning why "male" is actually part of their target market? See my previous posts. Gender is often something that is used (among other things) to describe a target market in the business world. And it makes sense to do so since males and females often have different interests.

Jade Kitsune, on 25 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

How is this the question... Mechwarrior is an action experience... it always has been.

Someone wondered why I was focusing on the "male" part of their response. I was simply agreeing that that, really, most of the discussion and questions revolve around the other aspects that make up the target market (age, income, history with BT, how much they play CoD) and that the "male" part of their answer is probably the one that requires the least discussion.

Edited by malibu43, 25 March 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Mercules]

malibu43, on 25 March 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

You seem to have no idea how marketing works. There is a male/female distinction because males are (probably, or at least according to PGI's data) more likely to be interested in this game. I am not saying a female can't enjoy mechwarrior. PGI isn't saying that either. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

It is a fact that different products appeal to males more than females or females more than males. Fact. Not opinion. It is not an archaic way of thinking. It is a real world fact. As a business, you need to know who the biggest potential sources of revenue are and those are the markets you go after.

I don't have PGI's market research data, but I'd be willing to be A LOT of my own money that MWO stands to make a lot more money off of males than females.

This is true. It is factual that certain things will appeal to males more than females and vise versa in general. However, in marketing to the males who are already attracted to your product by it's nature you need to be sure you don't alienate the females who might be interested in the product.

I used to, for example, cut hair as a living. I really enjoyed the coloring part of my job. If all the tools to do so were designed STRICTLY with the female demographic in mind, assuming the most stereotypical sexist view of that. There is a good chance I would not buy that company's products. While females are the target demographic for most companies selling the tools to do hair coloring... they can chose to cater to that demographic specifically or gather a wider customer base.

Excluding females from a video game might be a bad move, even an "Action Gamer" game where they typically don't make up the primary demographic playing said style. Besides, if you hook a girlfriend/wife into a game that normally appeals to "males" and they have a male significant other, he probably isn't that far behind.

[malibu43]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

This is true. It is factual that certain things will appeal to males more than females and vise versa in general. However, in marketing to the males who are already attracted to your product by it's nature you need to be sure you don't alienate the females who might be interested in the product. I used to, for example, cut hair as a living. I really enjoyed the coloring part of my job. If all the tools to do so were designed STRICTLY with the female demographic in mind, assuming the most stereotypical sexist view of that. There is a good chance I would not buy that company's products. While females are the target demographic for most companies selling the tools to do hair coloring... they can chose to cater to that demographic specifically or gather a wider customer base. Excluding females from a video game might be a bad move, even an "Action Gamer" game where they typically don't make up the primary demographic playing said style. Besides, if you hook a girlfriend/wife into a game that normally appeals to "males" and they have a male significant other, he probably isn't that far behind.

I agree, you wouldn't want to alienate any female players.

Look at it this way. The target market defines who they are trying to get to use their product. They have limited resources available. Should they be devoting those resources to make a game that appeals to females or a game that appeals to males?

That doesn't mean that at some point down the road when they've reached much of their target market they can't start trying to broaden their approach by going after some of the demographics they haven't reached yet.

Edited by malibu43, 25 March 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[beniliusbob]

Judging by the forums, MWO players:

-All have MBAs
-All have degrees in computer science and many years programming experience
-Are social scientists

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!

[Henchman 24]

Yeah Jade

Quote

Basically with your statement Bryan, you're looking for gamers aged 15-25+.

You might want to consult with some Flight Sim devs on that one...you are way off on the end bracket. I happen to know quite a few flight sim players of all ages, including one at 88 years old who has the sweetest cockpit mockup you've ever seen. The flight sim crowd isn't the average rage n00b trying out a new F2P game for temporary kicks. I realize nobody wants the latter, but the former could be a huge base that's quite varied, and valuable.

I think you may be short changing their age estimates a bit based on, from what I can tell, is maybe a dislike of CoD or something? I don't play it myself...so I'm no advocate for it...but I know a few guys in their 50s playing it every weekend, or they used to as of last year or so. Anyway, all Bryan did was float some ideas...a big name, big money fps...on through to the first person flight sim crowd, which is wider in age variance than most other genres.

I realize some choices PGI made/talked about inspires the urge to paint a full wall sized mural of Picard doing a facepalm and hand delivering it to them. But even I have had to take a step back and start asking folks playing this...what they play otherwise...and so far it's not like PGI is missing the target here.

They are just ******* off the CBT purists is all...and that's been happening since day one. This is nothing new or game breaking so far.

[malibu43]

beniliusbob, on 25 March 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Judging by the forums, MWO players: -All have MBAs -All have degrees in computer science and many years programming experience -Are social scientists Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!

I realize that I just contributed to this by spouting off all sorts of things about marketing and target markets even though I have very little education and real world experience to back any of it up (which, to be fair, is probably just as much as or more than a lot of other people sharing their opinions).

But I'm going QFT anyway (and shut up about target markets).

Edited by malibu43, 25 March 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Wrong, there should be no "male or female" distinction, ESPECIALLY with gaming, and within all media frankly. That's old, archaic thinking that's nothing but a poison.

Why can't a woman enjoy Mechwarrior? Why does it have to be "Male action gamer" huh? why can't it just be "Action Gamer"?

There was literally, absolutely 0 point in saying "male" in that bit. 0 zip nadda.



The problem is, if you keep playing Darius... you = content.

Free players in F2P games are content, you're the thing the paying players fight against. sure they fight eachother at times too, but you're additional cannon fodder.

while on the plus side, you extend the life of the game, you also validate what the company has chosen to do.

Males are the primary player of the whole RPG Action game. Ever go to a gaming convention? I have. Catering to a majority this unbalanced is just playing easy money. My daughter is a named character in this universe. She won that right being the meanest killing machine on the map. She is an Atypical woman. I love her for that.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Henchman 24, on 25 March 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Yeah Jade



You might want to consult with some Flight Sim devs on that one...you are way off on the end bracket. I happen to know quite a few flight sim players of all ages, including one at 88 years old who has the sweetest cockpit mockup you've ever seen. The flight sim crowd isn't the average rage n00b trying out a new F2P game for temporary kicks. I realize nobody wants the latter, but the former could be a huge base that's quite varied, and valuable.

I think you may be short changing their age estimates a bit based on, from what I can tell, is maybe a dislike of CoD or something? I don't play it myself...so I'm no advocate for it...but I know a few guys in their 50s playing it every weekend, or they used to as of last year or so. Anyway, all Bryan did was float some ideas...a big name, big money fps...on through to the first person flight sim crowd, which is wider in age variance than most other genres.

I realize some choices PGI made/talked about inspires the urge to paint a full wall sized mural of Picard doing a facepalm and hand delivering it to them. But even I have had to take a step back and start asking folks playing this...what they play otherwise...and so far it's not like PGI is missing the target here.

They are just ******* off the CBT purists is all...and that's been happening since day one. This is nothing new or game breaking so far.

Oh you know that "and flight sim" bit of that was tacked on at the hopes it would be enough of a blanket statement for it not to be called into quesiton.
which someone called them out ANYWAY.

malibu43, on 25 March 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I realize that I just contributed to this by spouting off all sorts of things about marketing and target markets even though I have very little education and real world experience to back any of it up (which, to be fair, is probably just as much as or more than a lot of other people sharing their opinions).

But I'm going QFT anyway (and shut up about target markets).

And some of us actually know what we're talking about, and went to school for, or with, other's that had to study exactly these things.

[malibu43]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

And some of us actually know what we're talking about, and went to school for, or with, other's that had to study exactly these things.

Well, I (and someone at PGI's marketing department) still disagree with what you said. But I have no interest in starting a "whose resume is bigger" contest.

Edited by malibu43, 25 March 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Xipe Totec]

But I like that game, it's fun.

I had a long version, but here's a more concise argument. The skills needed to run IGP and PGI the way people say it should be run with regards to research, in-game economy, and internal management are rare and often expensive.

I suspect IGP balked at the price tags and so now is trying to pick up those skills "on the fly." It's a very difficult proposition, which leads to a lot of rookie mistakes.

Micro-transaction Gaming, especially in Canada, is a very small world, and they are very tiny fish.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Target demographic?

-Yes men.
-People who have no loyalty to the IP or the game and will move onto the next new thing despite their best wasted efforts to bring that crowd to the game.
-People who think Coolant Flush is a good idea.
-People who think 3PV is a good idea and won't have a negative impact on the game.


More "amazing" ideas:
- MASC needs consumable items to use the speed buff. There are varying degrees of tihs consumable with the better ones giving a lower chance of them freezing or damaging your mechs legs.
- Radar consumable: When used it gives surrounding mechs with LRMS a faster flight time until it runs out.
- Infantry consumable: Attach this consumable to a grid coordinate or a building in that coordinate. Depending on quality it creates AI infantry that fire on the nearest enemy mech. (I actually like this idea.)

Consumable maaaddneessss!

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

PANZERBUNNY, on 25 March 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Target demographic?

-Yes men.
-People who have no loyalty to the IP or the game and will move onto the next new thing despite their best wasted efforts to bring that crowd to the game.
-People who think Coolant Flush is a good idea.
-People who think 3PV is a good idea and won't have a negative impact on the game.


More "amazing" ideas:
- MASC needs consumable items to use the speed buff. There are varying degrees of tihs consumable with the better ones giving a lower chance of them freezing or damaging your mechs legs.
- Radar consumable: When used it gives surrounding mechs with LRMS a faster flight time until it runs out.
- Infantry consumable: Attach this consumable to a grid coordinate or a building in that coordinate. Depending on quality it creates AI infantry that fire on the nearest enemy mech. (I actually like this idea.)

Consumable maaaddneessss!

And to be fair, you have some interesting ideas... most are BAD, but they're atleast interesting.

The infantry idea I totally agree with, it gives us a way to have infantry in the game, gives machine guns a use [killing infantry] AND makes the game more interesting over all.

I'm also down with Aero fighters and Heli's being called in, which gives Anti Air mechs something to do other than stand there and look pretty, and gives additional use to the AC2's.