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The Target Demographic Argument


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#21 FupDup

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostJade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Basically with your statement Bryan, you're looking for gamers aged 15-25+.

Your fundamental flaw in this is that you should be targeting gamers aged 20-45+.

I'm 19 (first Battletech exposure was in 2002 with Mechassault at age 8, then I moved on to play MW4, MW3, and finally MWO) and I enjoy the current gameplay just fine. :huh:

It's not about age, it's about mindset and tastes. These are often influenced by age but it's not a guarantee of anything.

Edited by FupDup, 21 March 2013 - 07:34 PM.


#22 Davers

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:28 PM

View PostJade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:


The problem is they're moving toward's a focus on consumables, 3rd person, and coolant.

They've already lost one of their biggest supporters[me]... I've dropped possibly 3-4 hundred dollars on this game [including founders] since "open beta" and at times where I felt they were heading in the right direction, yet then, after some great moments, they switch gears, do a 180 and start heading the arse opposite direction of what was promised.

I'm just riding out my 60+ days of premium time... and hoping, maybe, there will be a reason for me to stick around after my 60 days are up.

Consumables of some sort was inevitable. Coolant is hardly P2W. 3rd person was never announced to be for in-game. Please don't let the paranoid reactionary elements in the forums make you think things are worse than they are.

#23 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:28 PM

View Postzverofaust, on 21 March 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

I love all these comparisons and utterly simplified analogies people are drawing with completely unrelated titles and even mediums. Yes, please tell us more about how some comic book crap is completely and utterly relevant to MWO's development!

Here's an unfortunate reality I'm sure you'll vehemently deny: Basing the financial future and security of PGI on a handful of aging fanmen isn't going to work. You can't just squat over a toilet and push out whatever crap you want and slap a Mechwarrior label on it, even if there will be people who embrace it simply for that label. What you need is a game that's actually fun, takes risks and brings something new to the table.

But before any of that, I'd like to ask you to take a moment and tell me how exactly PGI is trying to copy other popular titles, and how this is watering down the MWO ~experience~?


Allow me to simplify for you zervo

Comic Company's think there's a demographic out there for their products that doesn't exist [the 10-20 year old age range]

IGP thinks that there's a demographic out there for MWO that doesn't exist [the 10-20 year old COD/casual gamer]

To draw in readers the comic book company changes writers on something to casualize it for new readers, moving existing writers to a new project.

To draw in new users, IGP casualizes the game by adding features that existing users do not want.

With Comic Books, if they move a writer I like, I simply move to the new book that writer is working on. [ie if they move someone from Iron Man to X men, I'll go read x-men if I don't like what they're doing with Iron Man]

With IGP, if they add components that the core user base does not want, the core user base will simply walk away, and IGP has nothing else to draw users, which means no money.


Basically IGP's trying to do what comic book company's tires to do, however they have no secondary property's to draw in users they'll loose in one game to another.

make sense? Because I couldn't make it more simplified.

#24 Windies

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostDavers, on 21 March 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Consumables of some sort was inevitable. Coolant is hardly P2W. 3rd person was never announced to be for in-game. Please don't let the paranoid reactionary elements in the forums make you think things are worse than they are.


Coolant flush was also said to not be up for development, yet here we are. Now all they need to do is quietly announce a new Cool shot 36 for MC only down the road and you'll have your P2W along with specialty MC ammo because of course that will never happen either, thanks for providing the justification.

Edited by Windies, 21 March 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#25 tuokaerf

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:32 PM

Can you explain in more detail on how they're simplifying things down to a 10-20 year old gamer? The gameplay is nothing like CoD. Simplified controls is hardly making the game CoD style.

#26 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

View Posttuokaerf, on 21 March 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Can you explain in more detail on how they're simplifying things down to a 10-20 year old gamer? The gameplay is nothing like CoD. Simplified controls is hardly making the game CoD style.

it's "Casual" options.

3rd person view [which apparently the "casuals" have been clamoring for over twitter]
Coolant [My mech runs too hot!!!!! I can't cool down fast enough with dubs, cool run and heat containment!!!!!]
it's not about controls, it's about them "Adding" features to the game that "Casual" players want, thus "gaining" new players.

It's an excuse to add things that simply, are not needed nor desired by the core user base of the product.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 21 March 2013 - 07:34 PM.


#27 Davers

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostWindies, on 21 March 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:


Coolant flush was also said to not be up for development, yet here we are. Now all they need to do is quietly announce a new Cool shot 36 for MC only down the road and you'll have your P2W, thanks for providing the justification.

Yes, they could do that. They could also have MC only Clan mechs with true DHS. But I don't think they will do that.

#28 Windies

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:35 PM

View PostDavers, on 21 March 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Yes, they could do that. They could also have MC only Clan mechs with true DHS. But I don't think they will do that.


Why not, do they still have a shred of integrity left that I'm unaware of?

#29 tuokaerf

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

View PostWindies, on 21 March 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:


Coolant flush was also said to not be up for development, yet here we are. Now all they need to do is quietly announce a new Cool shot 36 for MC only down the road and you'll have your P2W along with specialty MC ammo because of course that will never happen either, thanks for providing the justification.


To be fair, Coolant Pods are much different than the flush we have now, and way more OP. Here's the quote:



Quote

Q: Have you guys considered adding Coolant Pods to increase heat dissipation of a mech's heatsinks when used? [vayne]
A: Yes, we considered and then dropped the idea. We found it more of a crutch and lead to more issues than it helped with. If you're in a long, multi-targetted single player game, it makes sense. In a player vs. player environment you get a MASSIVE increase in firepower for no cost, or it wouldn't be enough to make a difference (IE. the match would never last long enough for you running out of coolant to matter, because you've already killed two people. Or, it doesn't even last a single fight, then why even have it?) Does that make sense? [Garth]


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod

#30 zverofaust

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

View PostJade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:


Allow me to simplify for you zervo

<diatribe about comic books>


I'm sorry but if you need to cling to some ridiculously unrelated analogy like comic books, then your argument is bad. The worst part is, you could've reproduced your message quite simply by saying: "PGI is trying to market MWO to a broader audience, but this threatens to undermine the core values of the game that we cantankerous lot have grown to love".

What's even WORSE is that you didn't actually answer my question: HOW is PGI threatening your precious family values? What MWO "hallmarks" are they demolishing to make way for the "wave" of foam-mouthed 12 year olds that you see on the horizon?

#31 tuokaerf

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

View PostJade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

it's "Casual" options.

3rd person view [which apparently the "casuals" have been clamoring for over twitter]
Coolant [My mech runs too hot!!!!! I can't cool down fast enough with dubs, cool run and heat containment!!!!!]
it's not about controls, it's about them "Adding" features to the game that "Casual" players want, thus "gaining" new players.

It's an excuse to add things that simply, are not needed nor desired by the core user base of the product.


I'm not excited about 3rd person view, I'd personally never use it and it can give an advantage in some situations. The post explaining some ideas on it however is fairly well thought out with some feedback needed on how it will operate in CW.

The controls are benign. It makes sense for some builds to do this, and good for new players. I myself had a hard time getting down the independent movement of the upper and lower body plus arms. If they were dumbing it down, they would have made those the only options.

As for Coolant, who really cares? We're a few days in and I've noticed no different in myself getting killed (I don't use it, my builds run fairly cool) more often or less than before in a brawl (well, besides the LRM fest).

#32 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

View Posttuokaerf, on 21 March 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:


To be fair, Coolant Pods are much different than the flush we have now, and way more OP. Here's the quote:





http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod


Except coolant pods are a piece of equipment that can be critted and cause additional damage to the location once busted [similar to an ammo explosion]

coolant pods would be fine, they TAKE UP WEIGHT AND HAVE DRAW BACKS!!!!!!! coolant flush has no drawback.

View Postzverofaust, on 21 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:


I'm sorry but if you need to cling to some ridiculously unrelated analogy like comic books, then your argument is bad. The worst part is, you could've reproduced your message quite simply by saying: "PGI is trying to market MWO to a broader audience, but this threatens to undermine the core values of the game that we cantankerous lot have grown to love".

What's even WORSE is that you didn't actually answer my question: HOW is PGI threatening your precious family values? What MWO "hallmarks" are they demolishing to make way for the "wave" of foam-mouthed 12 year olds that you see on the horizon?


If you can't understand the anology, then that's your problem, you're bringing nothing constructive to the table, though i shouldn't be suprised, you rarely deliver on a constructive comment.

#33 zverofaust

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostJade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you can't understand the anology, then that's your problem, you're bringing nothing constructive to the table, though i shouldn't be suprised, you rarely deliver on a constructive comment.


Thank you for completely dodging the question with an ad hominem.

Edited by zverofaust, 21 March 2013 - 07:46 PM.


#34 Davers

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostWindies, on 21 March 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:


Why not, do they still have a shred of integrity left that I'm unaware of?

Did you lose all respect for your parents when they told you that Santa wasn't real after lying for years for their own amusement? :huh:

Seriously though, I am sure that despite what people on the forums might say, it was a heavily requested item by people who played MW4.

If you truly feel betrayed, then don't spend any money. Or better yet, don't play at all and deprive their other customers of content (you). But hanging around like some bitter ex-girlfriend isn't how to handle this.

YMMV.

#35 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Postzverofaust, on 21 March 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:


Thank you for completely dodging the question with an ad hominem.

You're quite welcome.

#36 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:52 PM

View Postzverofaust, on 21 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:


I'm sorry but if you need to cling to some ridiculously unrelated analogy like comic books, then your argument is bad. The worst part is, you could've reproduced your message quite simply by saying: "PGI is trying to market MWO to a broader audience, but this threatens to undermine the core values of the game that we cantankerous lot have grown to love".

What's even WORSE is that you didn't actually answer my question: HOW is PGI threatening your precious family values? What MWO "hallmarks" are they demolishing to make way for the "wave" of foam-mouthed 12 year olds that you see on the horizon?


Also fine, you know what, to answer your question. READ THE EARLY DEV BLOGS... also note that coolant would "never be added" that they said we'd never have a thrid person view, and that MWO will never be "Pay 2 Win" which we're already heading torwards, or the argument with coolant could be made that yes, we are in P2W terrority due to being able to get 1-3 extra alphastrikes off extra over someone who doesn't utilize coolant.

You're a fool to think that coolant won't be utilized by the "top tier" players, in fact, it's that kind of thing that WILL be utilized because it gives an advantage.

At the end of the day, MWO will die, it's been on a pretty steady decline, and they seem to only want to hasten it's death.

They sold this product on a set of pillars that are, frankly, not the core pillars anymore... most of the core pillars lay in the rubble of what could have been the best Mechwarrior experience ever, instead, it's nothing more than a shell of what it could have been.

#37 Jonathan Paine

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

Simply this: I'll keep playing until the game changes move too far away from my taste. I'm not buying any more MC until I see a change in direction toward my taste.

For those who want zero weight, zero crit paid for modules and 3rd person view: you pay for development.

#38 Davers

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:01 PM

View PostJade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:


Also fine, you know what, to answer your question. READ THE EARLY DEV BLOGS... also note that coolant would "never be added" that they said we'd never have a thrid person view, and that MWO will never be "Pay 2 Win" which we're already heading torwards, or the argument with coolant could be made that yes, we are in P2W terrority due to being able to get 1-3 extra alphastrikes off extra over someone who doesn't utilize coolant.

You're a fool to think that coolant won't be utilized by the "top tier" players, in fact, it's that kind of thing that WILL be utilized because it gives an advantage.

At the end of the day, MWO will die, it's been on a pretty steady decline, and they seem to only want to hasten it's death.


Coolant may be used, but it is hardly OP or P2W, since anyone can buy it for Cbills if they choose. And you make enough from a win, and usually from a loss as well, to cover the cost.

People insist that PGI is failing and MW is going out of business despite the Devs being very confident that the game is actually expanding. This is the same mentality of all the 'I'm quitting' posts- they are sure their absence will be noticed and missed. But I don't find that the case.

#39 zverofaust

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:03 PM

View PostJade Kitsune, on 21 March 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:


Also fine, you know what, to answer your question. READ THE EARLY DEV BLOGS... also note that coolant would "never be added" that they said we'd never have a thrid person view, and that MWO will never be "Pay 2 Win" which we're already heading torwards, or the argument with coolant could be made that yes, we are in P2W terrority due to being able to get 1-3 extra alphastrikes off extra over someone who doesn't utilize coolant.

You're a fool to think that coolant won't be utilized by the "top tier" players, in fact, it's that kind of thing that WILL be utilized because it gives an advantage.

At the end of the day, MWO will die, it's been on a pretty steady decline, and they seem to only want to hasten it's death.

They sold this product on a set of pillars that are, frankly, not the core pillars anymore... most of the core pillars lay in the rubble of what could have been the best Mechwarrior experience ever, instead, it's nothing more than a shell of what it could have been.


1) This game is still in development. A fairly early stage. It shouldn't be, but PGI is new and slow. But one thing that happens when a game is actively being developed is that ideas and direction are subject to change. Original plans don't work out and are modified; new ideas are brought up, discussed, filed away, and dug back up. Not a single game in the history of human artistic endeavour has ever, ever been an exact representation of what its creators imagined it would be when they started out.

2) Coolant Flush has been a staple of the Mechwarrior series since forever. It hasn't been in every game, but it has been in enough that most people with even a tertiary knowledge of the MW franchise knows what it is.

3) You complain about "advantages"; you know what else is an advantage? A weapon. And you know what other games have weapons? Call of Duty. Clearly, weapons need to be removed from MWO, because they are just copying other popular games by implementing them, and they give an advantage to people who use them.

4) #3 was a joke, and an example of the kind of runaway logic you're using to justify arbitrarily and subjectively vilifying certain features over others. I actually bought a Coolant Flush module (I refuse to refer to it by the absolutely ridiculous name they gave it) and plugged it into my Mech yesterday. I still haven't used it. I prefer building my Mechs so they're heat stable and I rarely overheat. Sure, it means my short-term damage output may be lower than others, but I can sustain my fire for longer. But you know what the most beautiful part about it is? MWO is designed in such a way that I am encouraged to make fundamental decisions like that, and they affect my gameplay. And Coolant Flush is simply another aspect of that.

Overall I find your argument hyperbolic and deeply ignorant; it amounts to little more than "PGI is catering to the wrong demographic. They SHOULD be catering to me -- I am their demographic, and if you don't listen to me, your game will DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM"

This is why I'm starting to refer to people like you as ultra-conservatives; all of the arguments you and others are making make it seem like you won't be happy unless PGI immediately halts any and all further development of the game, and MWO is kept in a limbo of non-progression exactly where it is. That simply isn't going to happen.

#40 Davers

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostJonathan Paine, on 21 March 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Simply this: I'll keep playing until the game changes move too far away from my taste. I'm not buying any more MC until I see a change in direction toward my taste.

For those who want zero weight, zero crit paid for modules and 3rd person view: you pay for development.

This is your prerogative.

Why did you not have a problem when modules were 'pilot skills' that would have been zero weight, zero crit paid?

Why do you choose to ignore when Garth said 3rd person is not going to be in game 'any time soon'? (Which I take as being never in game, maybe you don't. But if I said 'Monkeys are not going to fly out of my butt anytime soon' I hope you wouldn't take that to mean eventually they would.)

:huh:





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