82 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

[Redacted]

Nerfing LRMs is a joke, and any experienced unit is going to tell you the same thing: LRMs already have so many serious drawbacks, they are simply not worth using in any remotely competitive setting. For a while they had a small niche on fast mediums to support lights, but it was so borderline this nerf pretty much killed even that role for them outright.

[Redacted] ANY good player, or even small groups of good players, effectively destroy LRMs with a combination of ECM and simply swarming them up close. Direct fire is entirely superior across the board. Any weapon with this many drawbacks - including being entirely disabled by being anywhere near ECM - simply cannot be considered unless it deals damage to scale with those.

Before you answer with your own ancedotes, quite frankly, if you're not involved in organized play it might be better to stay out of the thread. You'll probably start citing things like the 100 LRM Stalker, which can work in a gimmick sucker punch, but again no serious unit would field this thing. Any competent light team would render it dead weight before it could even begin to do effective damage.

I'm mostly angry that because PGI is listening to what amounts to basically a misinformed lynch mob, they've taken one of my favorite class of weapons and thrown it ENTIRELY into the trash pile. There's not even a niche for these things anymore in real games.

Unless PGI plans on getting rid of all the other drawbacks to the LRM (LOS Artemis, ECM preventing locks without TAG, TAG range being 750m, Minimum Range, bad firing arcs that render indirect fire terribly ineffective, etc., they badly need to up it.

But again, this is about more than the LRM. It's about weapon balance going into the future. Please, poll the RHOD teams more for weapon feedback. That's where you'll get serious balance information, not forum posts of people screaming to nerf something that was already so easy to hard counter it's on the very bottom tier of weapon classes already.

If we keep this up, we're just going to be doing this in a giant circle, gun class to gun class. Whatever replaces LRMs as the new favorite will be next, instead of a more subtle tweak and adjustment. There's a reason when Blizzard patches Starcraft, they increase or decrease things by, at most, 2-5% after polling their top players because over reactive patches are poison.

(ED: I am positively not speaking of the broken LRMs from Tuesday, but in comparison to the previous major patch. Even a slight nerf to an already nearly trash weapon is enough to push it over the edge.)

Edited by Egomane, 22 March 2013 - 04:40 AM.
Removed CoC violation

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

LRMs need more speed and no minimum range to be viable for competitive play. Even before the hotfix, when LRMs took a detour through crazy town, they were still completely negated by people just approaching under cover and getting inside the minimum range.

Edited by Narcisoldier, 21 March 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[zverofaust]

This is going to be a great thread.

[Victor Morson]

Narcisoldier, on 21 March 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

LRMs need more speed and no minimum range to be viable for competitive play. Even before the hotfix, when LRMs took a detour through crazy town, they were still completely negated by people just approaching under cover and getting inside the minimum range.

Indeed, a huge increase in speed from launcher-to-target would do a lot to justify their current damage. If the majority of my shots had a far better chance of registering consistently, I think the current damage levels would be more than fine.

Or a mix of two upgrades would help.

It's definitely a very good idea and worth putting forward.

EDIT: Notably when I was using LRMs in the last patch, I was effectively trying to stay in a quick 'mech to remain between 250-750, so I could use TAG/Artemis. It was very effective at suddenly delivering crippling damage to light skirmishes. With the nerfs, I wouldn't even do that.

Edited by Victor Morson, 21 March 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[benth]

Didn't you read Bryan's post about 3rd person?

They don't listen to anyone. Not the hardcore group, nor the solo droppers.

They simply want a wider audience, and will do whatever it takes to try to get it.

[Novakaine]

Plz stop the madness!

[jay35]

Actually, LRMs feel about right now. SRMs need a bit more punch though.

[Gaan Cathal]

Victor Morson, on 21 March 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Nerfing LRMs is a joke, and any experienced unit is going to tell you the same thing: LRMs already have so many serious drawbacks, they are simply not worth using in any remotely competitive setting. For a while they had a small niche on fast mediums to support lights, but it was so borderline this nerf pretty much killed even that role for them outright.

Good thing they didn't nerf them then. What actually happened is they fixed a bug. That bugfix lead to unexpected behaviour (the last day or so of Death From The Heavens) so they have, in the meantime, nerfed damage numbers temporarily while they work out what's going on with the grouping so they can fix splash damage properly. They have made it perfectly clear this isn't the permanent solution for LRMs.

[Hammer Hands]

Anyone who has been alive and breathing while playing this game knows there was a significant flaw in the splash damage mechanic of missiles. LRMS are still extremely viable and useable as a weapon. Sorry you can't one shot Atlas any more.

Also, you can't ignore PUGs just like you can't ignore the 'clanners'. So suck it up and deal with the fact that PUGers are also paying to play and enjoy a game.

[armyof1]

Interesting, the devs should ignore what the huge majority of the player base think about the game. That is certainly not a recipe for disaster.

[Victor Morson]

Gaan Cathal, on 21 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Good thing they didn't nerf them then. What actually happened is they fixed a bug. That bugfix lead to unexpected behaviour (the last day or so of Death From The Heavens) so they have, in the meantime, nerfed damage numbers temporarily while they work out what's going on with the grouping so they can fix splash damage properly. They have made it perfectly clear this isn't the permanent solution for LRMs.

Did you read the whole post? I clearly address that I am not speaking of the recent bug in the very bottom of it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 21 March 2013 - 09:46 PM.

[Hammer Hands]

jay35, on 21 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Actually, LRMs feel about right now. SRMs need a bit more punch though.

After many testing rounds in the grounds and a few matches I have to agree, they feel 'almost' where they should be.

Narcisoldier, on 21 March 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

LRMs need more speed and no minimum range to be viable for competitive play. Even before the hotfix, when LRMs took a detour through crazy town, they were still completely negated by people just approaching under cover and getting inside the minimum range.

Speed maybe, but no minimum range, get real. Otherwise there's nothing that give Clan LRMs a benefit over Inner Sphere.
Clan tech made the no minimum range for LRMs possible so just wait and you'll have that.

[Victor Morson]

Hammer Hands, on 21 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Anyone who has been alive and breathing while playing this game knows there was a significant flaw in the splash damage mechanic of missiles. LRMS are still extremely viable and useable as a weapon. Sorry you can't one shot Atlas any more.

Also, you can't ignore PUGs just like you can't ignore the 'clanners'. So suck it up and deal with the fact that PUGers are also paying to play and enjoy a game.

You do cater to PUGs, in terms of making things simple to use and such. You do not listen to them for weapon balance. They simply have no idea what is happening except "OMG I saw missiles then I died OOOOOPPPPPPP" instead of learning how to effectively shut them down.

Also, as I said very clearly in the OP that LRMs have been BORDERLINE viable in past patches and entirely non-viable in the latest. Nobody in a serious setting would ever take them nor were they "1 shotting Atlas" with them. Those kinds of builds look impressive but are terrible. TERRIBLE. 2 Raven pilots of moderate competence could shut down an entire lance of the things. They're a huge liability (including an XL engine), given the odds of them getting the necessary damage out before they're shutdown by ECM and swarmed is next to none.

The only "nerf" LRMs needed was a proper training video explaining to newbies how to exploit their weaknesses.

[Terror Teddy]

Narcisoldier, on 21 March 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

LRMs need more speed and no minimum range to be viable for competitive play. Even before the hotfix, when LRMs took a detour through crazy town, they were still completely negated by people just approaching under cover and getting inside the minimum range.

Are you nuts....no minimum range.

great. lets just rename them to Streak LRM's and remove SSRM's from the game. THINK before you post. also, no minimum range is clan tech lrms.

I would like to see:
-faster missiles
-no fire arc when shooting at targets in LOS - missiles go in a straight line in these cases instead like ssrm's.

[Victor Morson]

Hammer Hands, on 21 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Anyone who has been alive and breathing while playing this game knows there was a significant flaw in the splash damage mechanic of missiles. LRMS are still extremely viable and useable as a weapon. Sorry you can't one shot Atlas any more.

Also, you can't ignore PUGs just like you can't ignore the 'clanners'. So suck it up and deal with the fact that PUGers are also paying to play and enjoy a game.

You do cater to PUGs, in terms of making things simple to use and such. You do not listen to them for weapon balance. They simply have no idea what is happening except "OMG I saw missiles then I died OOOOOPPPPPPP" instead of learning how to effectively shut them down.

Also, as I said very clearly in the OP that LRMs have been BORDERLINE viable in past patches and entirely non-viable in the latest. Nobody in a serious setting would ever take them nor were they "1 shotting Atlas" with them. Those kinds of builds look impressive but are terrible. TERRIBLE. 2 Raven pilots of moderate competence could shut down an entire lance of the things. They're a huge liability (including an XL engine), given the odds of them getting the necessary damage out before they're shutdown by ECM and swarmed is next to none.

The only "nerf" LRMs needed was a proper training video explaining to newbies how to exploit their weaknesses.

armyof1, on 21 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Interesting, the devs should ignore what the huge majority of the player base think about the game. That is certainly not a recipe for disaster.

They should. And it's for your benefit in the end, even though it might not sound like that.

Let me put it this way: I could bring up ANY hot balance issue in the game among PUGs and you would hear 50 opinions, including 50 rants. I could bring up LRMs being underpowered and terrible to every pro team in the game, and they would all agree, across the board.

That's because group B has an understanding and insight that group A, an angry mob going by what they saw (and not the subtle stuff they didn't see). I think you can see why going with group A is a terrible idea, even for group A.

Or to give a practical example, would you rather read a review for a product by professional critics or a bunch of youtube comment boards? Which do you think might offer you more insight into the matter? Would you rather future studio productions be based on critical feedback or those same youtube comments?

Edited by Victor Morson, 21 March 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[Hammer Hands]

armyof1, on 21 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Interesting, the devs should ignore what the huge majority of the player base think about the game. That is certainly not a recipe for disaster.

I love how you consider them a trash system yet in 4 and 8 man drops I can put the system to exceptional use via manuevering and team work to cause serious problems.

[Pater Mors]

Victor Morson, on 21 March 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Nerfing LRMs is a joke, and any experienced unit is going to tell you the same thing: LRMs already have so many serious drawbacks, they are simply not worth using in any remotely competitive setting. For a while they had a small niche on fast mediums to support lights, but it was so borderline this nerf pretty much killed even that role for them outright.

[Redacted] ANY good player, or even small groups of good players, effectively destroy LRMs with a combination of ECM and simply swarming them up close. Direct fire is entirely superior across the board. Any weapon with this many drawbacks - including being entirely disabled by being anywhere near ECM - simply cannot be considered unless it deals damage to scale with those.

Before you answer with your own ancedotes, quite frankly, if you're not involved in organized play it might be better to stay out of the thread. You'll probably start citing things like the 100 LRM Stalker, which can work in a gimmick sucker punch, but again no serious unit would field this thing. Any competent light team would render it dead weight before it could even begin to do effective damage.

I'm mostly angry that because PGI is listening to what amounts to basically a misinformed lynch mob, they've taken one of my favorite class of weapons and thrown it ENTIRELY into the trash pile. There's not even a niche for these things anymore in real games.

Unless PGI plans on getting rid of all the other drawbacks to the LRM (LOS Artemis, ECM preventing locks without TAG, TAG range being 750m, Minimum Range, bad firing arcs that render indirect fire terribly ineffective, etc., they badly need to up it.

But again, this is about more than the LRM. It's about weapon balance going into the future. Please, poll the RHOD teams more for weapon feedback. That's where you'll get serious balance information, not forum posts of people screaming to nerf something that was already so easy to hard counter it's on the very bottom tier of weapon classes already.

If we keep this up, we're just going to be doing this in a giant circle, gun class to gun class. Whatever replaces LRMs as the new favorite will be next, instead of a more subtle tweak and adjustment. There's a reason when Blizzard patches Starcraft, they increase or decrease things by, at most, 2-5% after polling their top players because over reactive patches are poison.

(ED: I am positively not speaking of the broken LRMs from Tuesday, but in comparison to the previous major patch. Even a slight nerf to an already nearly trash weapon is enough to push it over the edge.)

Edited by Egomane, 22 March 2013 - 03:45 AM.
Quote Cleanup

[Vercinaigh]

Victor Morson, on 21 March 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

Question A: What unit are you in?
Question B: Did you read the whole post? I clearly address that I am not speaking of the recent bug in the very bottom of it.

Give up bro, you will not find rational thought or discussion here only rant and rage. i gave up on the average Joe many a year ago. nothing ever comes from arguing with these people, they can't get it, they won't accept it, and they won't ever let it go.

Just remember it's never their fault they suck, always something else.

[darkfall13]

Victor Morson, on 21 March 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

if you're not involved in organized play it might be better to stay out of the thread.

But you called us out with your thread...

But anyway, while I can agree that balancing shouldn't be via mob, you can't also invalidate an entire segment of the population's opinion. And as has been pointed out before:

benth, on 21 March 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Didn't you read Bryan's post about 3rd person?

They don't listen to anyone. Not the hardcore group, nor the solo droppers.

And no, just because I'm a pug doesn't mean I have been begging PGI to adapt 3PV or making the game more twitch friendly, making 1 man armies effective or anything of the sort.

[Hammer Hands]

Victor Morson, on 21 March 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

2 Raven pilots of moderate competence could shut down an entire lance of the things. They're a huge liability (including an XL engine), given the odds of them getting the necessary damage out before they're shutdown by ECM and swarmed is next to none.

The only "nerf" LRMs needed was a proper training video explaining to newbies how to exploit their weaknesses.

Well, it's a good thing you don't take entire lances and you run a lance with support for the LRMs who in turn supports his dropmates. This is a team game after all and when I say in 4 and 8 mans I make very viable use of them its because I have spent enough time playing them to counter the counters and I ALWAYS have the support of good team members backing me up. It's all in tactics brother and if you play solid tactics an LRM boat can bring some VERY serious supressing fire and damage to a team when needed.

We even use the LRMs as a bait to bring the lights to us in most cases. My role in most 8 mans is either the LRM boat, or as the Medium light killer to protect our flanks and LRM support.

Plus all of my LRM boats move at at the very least 60kph which means I can shoot and scoot to better points to bring the rain.

I have always loved LRMs because I love playing support.

As for your video suggestion, Make one. :-D