1107 replies to this topic

[Terran123rd]

Shumabot, on 24 March 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Sadly this isn't a single player game and you're helping to ruin it for 15 other people by taking your totally worthless joke mech.

So your stats are more important than my fun? I think we're done here.

[Henchman 24]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Please share some of these builds.

Use smurfy if you need a program: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab




Again - why? If you suffer a critical hit - you want the heatsink to be the thing that takes the hit. Losing a heatsink is greatly preferable to losing a weapon or ammunition. Taking up fewer slots does nothing to reduce the chance of a critical hit, it just changes the probability of where that hit is going to go -- and remember, empty spaces, endo steel, and ferro fibrous are rerolled until something tangible is hit by the critical.

Ok let me simplify this for you, as it seems you just want to be a pinhead.

Just because screws are superior fasteners....doesn't mean nails are going anywhere, or that they need to.

Also, any mech can fit 4 singles in their legs. Please try that with a double(weight argument aside), especially if you've already stuffed a weapon that probably shouldn't be on that particular mech, etc., that takes up so much space you can't fit another double....you then realize you have 5 or 6 empty slots all over the mech that could have fit a larger total(again, weight aside).

The point is, you're arguing about removing choice and options....that's usually never a good idea. You admit the cost is trivial to you, and others have found it's well within acceptable levels for the newer players who stick with the game and aren't put off the all the other GLARING missteps taken so far toward community integration for a game that has nothing but PvP to offer.

What is the point man? Distraction from the real problems?

[Protection]

Henchman 24, on 25 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ok let me simplify this for you, as it seems you just want to be a pinhead.

Just because screws are superior fasteners....doesn't mean nails are going anywhere, or that they need to.

Also, any mech can fit 4 singles in their legs. Please try that with a double(weight argument aside), especially if you've already stuffed a weapon that probably shouldn't be on that particular mech, etc., that takes up so much space you can't fit another double....you then realize you have 5 or 6 empty slots all over the mech that could have fit a larger total(again, weight aside).

The point is, you're arguing about removing choice and options....that's usually never a good idea. You admit the cost is trivial to you, and others have found it's well within acceptable levels for the newer players who stick with the game and aren't put off the all the other GLARING missteps taken so far toward community integration for a game that has nothing but PvP to offer.

What is the point man? Distraction from the real problems?

I would love for Singles to be a choice for optimization - but they are not, and that is the problem. Doubles are 100% superior on every possible build (except that one semi-serious Commando). Everything else NEEDS doubles to be optimized.

Please, I insist, share ONE, just ONE build where singles are better -- the "in the legs" bonus means nothing at all because even with four singles counting as doubles they dont catch up.

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 25 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I had a Stalker 4N that functioned fine with singles.

Was it runnable with singles? Yes

Is it better with doubles? Of course

Are doubles better than singles? Yes

Can players make a usable build that they can go out and have fun with and run singles? Yes

Are singles an investment and a choice as to which of their mechs should run them dependent on your budget and final intentions with that particular mech? Yes

Is the argument that competitive builds need doubles irrelevant? Yes

Is every player going to be a tourney running multi-thousand match accumulating super killer? No

Are singles so ridonkulously borked that they should be removed entirely? No

-k

Is this a competitive team game where your bad mech brings down your allies and causes them to lose more and have less fun due to the stacked match you are creating with your bad mech? Yes

Is one of this games biggest problems matchmaking and inferior builds causing severe balance issues? Yes

Do you have any idea what you're talking about, or have any idea how to balance a game? No

[Shumabot]

Terran123rd, on 25 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

So your stats are more important than my fun? I think we're done here.

Your fun is ruining 15 other peoples fun. You are selfish. Plain and simple.

[FupDup]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Your fun is ruining 15 other peoples fun. You are selfish. Plain and simple.

Well, he's actually only ruining the fun of 7 other people. The 8 others are probably having more fun with his decision to run singles, if you catch my drift.

[Shumabot]

Henchman 24, on 25 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ok let me simplify this for you, as it seems you just want to be a pinhead.

Just because screws are superior fasteners....doesn't mean nails are going anywhere, or that they need to.

Also, any mech can fit 4 singles in their legs. Please try that with a double(weight argument aside), especially if you've already stuffed a weapon that probably shouldn't be on that particular mech, etc., that takes up so much space you can't fit another double....you then realize you have 5 or 6 empty slots all over the mech that could have fit a larger total(again, weight aside).

The point is, you're arguing about removing choice and options....that's usually never a good idea. You admit the cost is trivial to you, and others have found it's well within acceptable levels for the newer players who stick with the game and aren't put off the all the other GLARING missteps taken so far toward community integration for a game that has nothing but PvP to offer.

What is the point man? Distraction from the real problems?

This is more a case of screws being superior to animal based sticky fat adhesive that you cook in your caveman campfire. There is precisely one build in the entirety of this game that isn't improved with double heat sinks and it's the streakmando with ECM. Nothing else.

Nothing.

Not a single thing.

Isn't improved with double heat sinks. That's not variety. That's a mandatory upgrade and it causes severe balance issues that drives new players away from the game.

FupDup, on 25 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Well, he's actually only ruining the fun of 7 other people. The 8 others are probably having more fun with his decision to run singles, if you catch my drift.

I don't enjoy winning 8-0. If I wanted to shoot harmless test dummies I would be on the testing ground.

[Kdogg788]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

I would love for Singles to be a choice for optimization - but they are not, and that is the problem. Doubles are 100% superior on every possible build (except that one semi-serious Commando). Everything else NEEDS doubles to be optimized.

Please, I insist, share ONE, just ONE build where singles are better -- the "in the legs" bonus means nothing at all because even with four singles counting as doubles they dont catch up.

The key word here is "optimized". Not every player is trying optimize the mech that they drive. Not every player knows what an optimal build is. Many players may be experimenting with different things to see what they like. I still think they are doing the best they can considering the mech lab still allows some outlandish things such as ammo in the legs.

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Is this a competitive team game where your bad mech brings down your allies and causes them to lose more and have less fun due to the stacked match you are creating with your bad mech? Yes

You would have been surprised how many kills that Stalker got even before the doubles went in. Is it an 8 man competitive build? No. But it was fun to run even before DHS and I could solo drop and wasn't the amazing liability to my team that you seem to think. Bad teamwork is more to blame for a loss than exactly what mech someone runs.

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Is one of this games biggest problems matchmaking and inferior builds causing severe balance issues? Yes

The disparity in group matching causes more problems than this and if you think having all DHS will solve the issue of people daring to run non Min/Max. builds on your team, then you are clearly delusional. ECM difference causes WAY more of an issue than SHS vs. DHS ever will or did in the past.

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Do you have any idea what you're talking about, or have any idea how to balance a game? No

I have the practical experience of playing the game since last summer in closed Beta but I'm not going to pretend to be a game designer or game balancer, and apparently neither should you.

-k

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

I don't enjoy winning 8-0. If I wanted to shoot harmless test dummies I would be on the testing ground.

But yet the idea of bringing an unoptimized mech is abhorrent to you?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Please, do share one of these builds...

Some builds are not as heat restrictive as others. I tend to notice some ballistic builds (especially Gauss) do not generate the same insane amount of heat. I might want to go single heat sink to meet the engine requirement while taking up less crit spots so I can mount more ammo.

Also, since double heat sinks cannot fit in legs or with some other weapons (or XL engines) equipped, you might be able to fit more single heat sinks than double. Even if the heat efficeney would come out about the same, since you placed single heat sinks in the legs or CT, you now have more room in the side torsos or arms for more weapons.

Lastly, sometimes you can't fit double heat sinks, if you want endo steel or ferro armor with the weapon loadout you might want. Just no enough free crit spots.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

But yet the idea of bringing an unoptimized mech is abhorrent to you?

This is why I hate talking to golds. All they can do is logical fallacies. I've said, repeatedly, in this thread and in many others, that double heat sinks need to be restructured in order to make them a choice and to increase viable variety. Using single heat sinks isn't a "fun build". That's nonsense. That's like saying going into the match with 20 tons empty or with no weapons is "fun". It doesn't provide more variety, it doesn't provide more fun, it just makes you weaker and brings your team down decreasing everyones fun. This isn't an agument saying everyone should just run splat cats and poptarts, this is an argument saying that not everyone should be forced to use dubs in order to be remotely viable.

That you can constantly, annoying, and stupidly, misconstrue my arguments into some sort of anti fun parade speaks a lot about the worth of your contributions here.

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Some builds are not as heat restrictive as others. I tend to notice some ballistic builds (especially Gauss) do not generate the same insane amount of heat. I might want to go single heat sink to meet the engine requirement while taking up less crit spots so I can mount more ammo.

Also, since double heat sinks cannot fit in legs or with some other weapons (or XL engines) equipped, you might be able to fit more single heat sinks than double. Even if the heat efficeney would come out about the same, since you placed single heat sinks in the legs or CT, you now have more room in the side torsos or arms for more weapons.

Lastly, sometimes you can't fit double heat sinks, if you want endo steel or ferro armor with the weapon loadout you might want. Just no enough free crit spots.

No, share one of the builds. Share them. Don't talk about theory, actually post a build. Proof.

[Protection]

Kdogg788, on 25 March 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

But it was fun to run even before DHS and I could solo drop and wasn't the amazing liability to my team that you seem to think. Bad teamwork is more to blame for a loss than exactly what mech someone runs.

But two teams with equal teamwork can very much be decided on which team brought the serious mechs.

Quote

The disparity in group matching causes more problems than this and if you think having all DHS will solve the issue of people daring to run non Min/Max. builds on your team, then you are clearly delusional. ECM difference causes WAY more of an issue than SHS vs. DHS ever will or did in the past.

I don't agree with that at all. ECM is a problem, but not having double heatsinks on many builds is a dramatic disadvantage that radically lowers your sustained DPS and ability to perform.

Quote

I have the practical experience of playing the game since last summer in closed Beta but I'm not going to pretend to be a game designer or game balancer, and apparently neither should you.


-k

I was in the first wave of closed beta invites, when there were fewer than 100 people playing.

And I was team captain of the team that won both of the closed beta competitive tournaments.

And the designers specifically asked us for feedback on balance, so I think I have some place to make balance suggestions.

[qki]

20 pages and you nutcases are still going over it?

Single heatsinks are here to stay, period.

Why? Because thay are part of 25+ years of lore written into the battletech universe, and will be present in any game that's not mechwarrior2. Because it's fun to say "I've upgraded my mech with double heatsinks and now heat is less of a problem". Because some designs with limited crit space (COM-2D comes to mind) would otherwise have to choose between having better dissipation when they don't really need it, because they run cool anyway, and having more protection with FF armour.

Trial mechs (for now at least) are stock, canon designs, and most of those use single heatsinks.

/EOT

[Shumabot]

qki, on 25 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

20 pages and you nutcases are still going over it?

Single heatsinks are here to stay, period.

Why? Because thay are part of 25+ years of lore written into the battletech universe, and will be present in any game that's not mechwarrior2. Because it's fun to say "I've upgraded my mech with double heatsinks and now heat is less of a problem". Because some designs with limited crit space (COM-2D comes to mind) would otherwise have to choose between having better dissipation when they don't really need it, because they run cool anyway, and having more protection with FF armour.

Trial mechs (for now at least) are stock, canon designs, and most of those use single heatsinks.

/EOT

Another wonderful contribution from a gold. The perfect illustration of why this game will die. 25 years of awful game design that can't be changed because that wouldn't be tradition.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[Protection]

qki, on 25 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

20 pages and you nutcases are still going over it?



Because some designs with limited crit space (COM-2D comes to mind) would otherwise have to choose between having better dissipation when they don't really need it, because they run cool anyway, and having more protection with FF armour.

Aside from that one Commando, no such build exists, except as a joke build.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

No, share one of the builds. Share them. Don't talk about theory, actually post a build. Proof.

I don't have to SHOW you any build. I explained in a lot of detail the reasons as to why single heat sinks play a part in the game. It is not my job to give you lessons on how to use the Mechlab.

BTW. If you are too impatient to try builds and figure this stuff out for yourself, than don't use any of this advice. Just play with your double heat sinks and drop the issue.

[Shumabot]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Aside from that one Commando, no such build exists, except as a joke build.

And lets be honest with ourselves, that commando is a joke build.

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

This is why I hate talking to golds. All they can do is logical fallacies. I've said, repeatedly, in this thread and in many others, that double heat sinks need to be restructured in order to make them a choice and to increase viable variety.

You mean you keep ignoring the actual cause. The problem is that weapon rate of fire has increased without accounting for heat. Weapons fire at least twice as fast with the same heat. Ergo, double heat sinks barely cover that extra heat.

But changing that is, "Oh that is no fun to play!" Yes, at that point Single heat sinks would become viable because a light running three Medium Lasers would disperse most of it's heat only retaining the walking running heat with default heat sinks. Going to 4 means it would have to stop firing all of them from time to time but still viable for a hit and run mech.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

You mean you keep ignoring the actual cause. The problem is that weapon rate of fire has increased without accounting for heat. Weapons fire at least twice as fast with the same heat. Ergo, double heat sinks barely cover that extra heat.

But changing that is, "Oh that is no fun to play!" Yes, at that point Single heat sinks would become viable because a light running three Medium Lasers would disperse most of it's heat only retaining the walking running heat with default heat sinks. Going to 4 means it would have to stop firing all of them from time to time but still viable for a hit and run mech.

IF THEY CHANGED WEAPON RATE OF FIRE DOUBLE HEAT SINKS WOULD STILL BE CLEARLY SUPERIOR IN VIRTUALLY EVERY CASE. THAT CHANGES NOTHING IN THIS CONVERSATION.

[REDACTED]

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 March 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

I don't have to SHOW you any build. I explained in a lot of detail the reasons as to why single heat sinks play a part in the game. It is not my job to give you lessons on how to use the Mechlab.

BTW. If you are too impatient to try builds and figure this stuff out for yourself, than don't use any of this advice. Just play with your double heat sinks and drop the issue.

You really do have to show a build. You know why?

[REDACTED] Those builds don't exist. The ecm streakmando is the only build in the entirety of MWO that isn't improved with doubles.

Edited by Viterbi, 26 March 2013 - 02:40 PM.
Shrunk letters, removed offensive content

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Another wonderful contribution from a gold. The perfect illustration of why this game will die. 25 years of awful game design that can't be changed because that wouldn't be tradition.

Oh look, it's another person who doesn't want to play Mechwarrior/Battletech based game complaining about this Mechwarrior game. I'm not here to play "Generic Mecha with no backstory: Online." Without the lore I can account for 10 people who would not play this game based on the mechanics alone.