1107 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

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An AC20 mech will overheat with the fire button held down on all but the coldest of maps with a maximum of sinks. You can test this out, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

No, we really don't. If you are seriously going to try to reframe the argument now, go ahead. But it's pathetic. You said it had heat problems. If heat problems means "Can fire infinitely on cold maps and for a very, very long time on hot ones" then every mech in the game has "heat problems". Agree to disagree nothing. You were wrong.

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You weren't here when DHS first came into the game, they were originally implemented differently or rather "bugged" as some would say, so in response the DHS were buffed by PGI and given a constant rate of heat dissipation because players were finding they weren't as effective that they thought they would be. To date there have been no further changes in regard to heat sinks or heat dissipation on a global scale.

Yeah, I've seen the patch notes. They settled on the worst possible engine to non engine ratio. It made them look horrible at balancing their own game (something they haven't really dispelled).

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So why all the rage? Are there friends of yours that tried playing but quit because they kept overheating? Can't afford doubles yet on all your mechs? Come on Shumie, get on the couch. Talk to Daddy.

I'm not mad at the game. I want the system changed, but I'm not mailing the devs, I'm talking to you. What is making me mad is the fact that you're an ignorant troll with nonsense shifting sands arguments.

[Protection]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Some mechs, don't make good use of double heat sinks due to critical slots.

This is wrong, and a newbie misconception.

[Ryvucz]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

This is wrong, and a newbie misconception.

Some mechs, just don't make, good use, of these things that you call double heat sinks.

Due to critical space.

[Shumabot]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Some mechs, just don't make, good use, of these things that you call double heat sinks.

Due to critical space.

Supermans already dead bra.

[Ryvucz]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Supermans already dead bra.

According to the comics, he was resurrected or some such.

So he can die again. Due to critical space.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

No, we really don't. If you are seriously going to try to reframe the argument now, go ahead. But it's pathetic. You said it had heat problems. If heat problems means "Can fire infinitely on cold maps and for a very, very long time on hot ones" then every mech in the game has "heat problems". Agree to disagree nothing. You were wrong.



Yeah, I've seen the patch notes. They settled on the worst possible engine to non engine ratio. It made them look horrible at balancing their own game (something they haven't really dispelled).



I'm not mad at the game. I want the system changed, but I'm not mailing the devs, I'm talking to you. What is making me mad is the fact that you're an ignorant troll with nonsense shifting sands arguments.

Well all I can say is keep fighting the good fight, bangin' your head against that wall. Common sense and reasoning will never reach through ignorant rage. And while you're at it get me some o' that good stuff you're smoking, because if you honestly think your rant is going to result in a complete overhaul of the heat system, it has to be some pretty potent sh*t.

-k

[Sheraf]

Less part to choose from, less thinking is required. Remove single heatsink

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Well all I can say is keep fighting the good fight, bangin' your head against that wall. Common sense and reasoning will never reach through ignorant rage. And while you're at it get me some o' that good stuff you're smoking, because if you honestly think your rant is going to result in a complete overhaul of the heat system, it has to be some pretty potent sh*t.

-k

I'm gonna let someone else field this one. Protection, I'm tagging you into troll patrol. I need a break.

[Raven-kell]

critical slots is why single HS are used.
Since IS (innersphere) are 1 ton one slot IS DHS are 1 ton 3 slots and clan DHS are 1 ton 2 slots.
Example of this is a purely ballistic mech, why would it need DHS?
But since we have hard points/forced configs the need for HS is very low.

[Shumabot]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

According to the comics, he was resurrected or some such.

So he can die again. Due to critical space.

[Protection]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Some mechs, just don't make, good use, of these things that you call double heat sinks.

Due to critical space.

Please, share these builds. Any of them.

[Shumabot]

Guys, he's fishing for supermen. He doesn't actually care about the conversation.

[Protection]

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Well all I can say is keep fighting the good fight, bangin' your head against that wall. Common sense and reasoning will never reach through ignorant rage. And while you're at it get me some o' that good stuff you're smoking, because if you honestly think your rant is going to result in a complete overhaul of the heat system, it has to be some pretty potent sh*t.

-k

The point is that the double heatsink build is always absolutely superior.

It doesn't matter if you are great at managing your heat. That doesn't change the mech build.

It doesn't matter if you think the SHS version is 'good enough.' The DHS version is better.

This is the complaint we have. The Single Heatsink - Double heatsink is a one dimensional, flat linear upgrade, and a required part of build optimization, and nothing more. It's a 1.5 million C-Bill sales tax on any new mech purchase.

Most of us think this is a poor use of a feature that obviously took time and effort to put into the game. We would rather see it totally removed if it remains so totally pointless, or we would rather they changed it to make better use of it, so there were real situations where SHS might be preferable choices for a variety of mechs.

[Dan Nashe]

I think some peoplwe don't understand how Heatsinks work.
The first 10 double heatsinks are double effectiveness. These cost 0 crits with a 250+ engine, 3. With a 225 plus and 6 crits with a 200 plus engine. No mech with under a 200 engine ever has space issues (commando, flee). Even worst case, dhs gives you 20 heat dissipation for six criticals (stock cataphract 4x). To match that with shs you need to use 12 criticals. (Engine holding 8).
You won't achieve crit parity until bout 13 or 14. That's 9 more tons than endo steel gives you on an atlas, and 12 more tons than ferro gives you. Drop those first unless you're doing it wrong on purpose.

Ecxtreme case: 210 engine, and your only weapons are gauss rifles. You have at least 47 empty crits with shs and 43 witho dhs. Thateaves room for 5 tons of ammo, ff and endo. Ok. There is one bad build in the game that can use shs if you want to be really slow and have more than 50 rounds of ammo and NO back up weapons. However, if you add a single medium laser OR increase the engine to 225 you can easily fit ams and 6 tons of ammo.

If you add even one medium laser, dhs are better.

But really, here is the point. Find me a single trial mech that I can't make better simply by giving it dhs. In the case of almost if not all stock mechs, this will be a tremendous dps boost. Even if I have to remove ferro fibrous to do it. In fact I bet I can nearly double the dps of almost all trial mechs this way.

In other words, you're basically giving trial players half the firepower of experienced players. This has nothing's ng to do with specialized loadouts and everything to do with dhs just literally always producing better mechs.(even my hypothetical gaussphract). This basically means new players getting mercilesslly, hopelessly stomped for 25 games. We're better off just giving them. A mech at that point.

So either just give players a stock mech off the bat (give them a choice of four options and a cash bonus for choosing smaller builds) or give all trial mechs dhs. This will make the game better for all.

I don't particularly care if they're removed or not. But new players should not have to run with shs for 25 terrible games. Learning to play is hard enough. And if they are removed entirely, it would't hurt the game, but that is not worth developer time.

Oh, and I fully support buffing shs instead to 1.2 or something. Or more. Even at 1.4, dhs start 6 heat ahead. Making them useful in some builds is good as long as dhs remain better for most builds (to keep the cbill sink).

[Kdogg788]

A more proactive approach to this thread would be the inclusion of a poll. I could find my own troll photo caps to add to the dozens above of Superman, a "Done Talking" T shirt, etc., but that would be a waste of time. The more difficult aspect is wording to the poll in an objective way. Too many polls around here give possible responses that just steer the answerer into a certain direction.

-k

[FupDup]

DanNashe, on 26 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Oh, and I fully support buffing shs instead to 1.2 or something. Or more. Even at 1.4, dhs start 6 heat ahead. Making them useful in some builds is good as long as dhs remain better for most builds (to keep the cbill sink).

My own stance (and the stance of some others) is to not buff SHS's dissipation because that seems like it invades into DHS territory a little bit.

Instead, a different buff to make SHS strategically useful in certain circumstances would be to make the following changes:
Double Heat Sinks
1. Make external DHS have 2.0 dissipation
2. Make it so they only raise the heat capacity by 1 at most (or even just 0) [current value is 2]

Standard Heat Sinks
1. Keep their slow dissipation of 1.0
2. Make it so they increase the mech's heat capacity by 2 or 3 (probably best at 3) [current value is 1]


In short, DHS would be advantageous for builds that need to fire very often/constantly, while SHS would be good for getting off a few alphas and then hiding while you wait for your heat to slowly dissipate. That would make choosing your heat sink type into a much deeper tactical decision and open up some new tactics/builds.

Edited by FupDup, 26 March 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Mercules]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Most of us think this is a poor use of a feature that obviously took time and effort to put into the game. We would rather see it totally removed if it remains so totally pointless, or we would rather they changed it to make better use of it, so there were real situations where SHS might be preferable choices for a variety of mechs.

And a couple of us are somewhat agreeing with you but pointing out that the problem is NOT Single Heat Sinks but other issues in the game that make it so Singles are not as worthwhile. However we get shouted down by, "No... that doesn't matter."

Will double heat sinks always be better than singles. Yes.
Will they ALWAYS be better if underlying issue are fixed. Likely
Will they ALWAYS be so much better a 1.5 mil investment is worth it if we fix the underlying issues. Debatable.

That is my point.

My other point everyone ignored was that if you want them viable the easiest fix is to not allow you to upgrade to double heatsinks and have people run basically stock mechs. Now they are perfectly viable.

[Bishop Steiner]

And as the gaps in their logic widen to Grand Canyon-esque chasms, the leet trolls fall back on the only tactic still "viable", to shout insults and spew the same nonsense over and over again, because the truth of the internet is the more one says it, the truer it has to be. *pats Protection and Shamubot on the heads*, why yes Timmy the moon IS made of green cheese.

Thank you for providing my mornings entertainment, instigating mentally challenged trolls into feebly attempting to win a logicfest IS more fun then tossing pennies between beggars. Shame that the best you could do was bring a broken plastic knife to a gunfight.

I am content at this point, to simply hit ignore, as the baseless personal attacks prove they have no point to make, simply a sense of entitlement, and an inability to actually comprehend that they do indeed have to share the sandbox with all the other children. Joe, Merc, others with some modicum of common sense, see ya guys dirtside (well, in a couple weeks, to big a pain to have to hunt up a Starbucks to play on my laptop)

Bishop Steiner, Captain of the Logic Police, signing off.

[Ryvucz]

Thontor, on 26 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm completely against the idea of removing single heat sinks. The status quo is working just fine.


But you are completely wrong. Every mech is improved by upgrading to DHS. To ahead to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/ and make a build that you think would not make good use of double heat sinks, and I guarantee it can be improved upon by upgrading.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...466be0812b047ca

[Kdogg788]

The easiest way to fix this issue I think is my original idea:

Trial Queue and Owned Queue.

New players in trials drop together. When ready for a real mech, join the rest of the game. It is that simple. No massive rebalancing of the heat system or deletion of build options is needed here.

-k