1107 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

So you say, but you have provided nothing at all helpful to the thread. You just insult those who disagree with you. I have given ideas how to fix the balance of sinks and doubles.

I have plenty of hobbies, I just like this one best.

Only you seem to care how many posts I have(I never mention my post count as it is only a number.

As to me characterizing the community, well you seem to be doing the same thing Mister Pott.

I insult people who lie in a public place, and I insult people who use logical fallacies and the reasoning of a child to prove their point. No, I have not been kind in my responses to you. I've been giving what's thoroughly deserved given the quality if your posts. In this thread I have improved three seperate posters builds in smurfy, explained the mechanics of DHS, explained the mechanics of new players interactions with SHS and stock mechs and explained significant portions of game theory to over a dozen posters.

What have you done? You've constantly mischaracterized me (and everyone else you've responded to) as saying they need to remove single heat sinks (Something I have literally not said once in tens of posts in this thread you cretin). I have said double heat sinks should be modified into a system that isn't a pure upgrade that results in new players being hazed and a 1.5 million tax on competitive performance of mechs. You basically just shout at an effigy of me that you've constructed in return. I'm not going to be nice to you. You aren't even close to deserving kind responses. Forum rules are about the only reason I don't say much less kind things. You are the worst kind of gamer.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I question if you people can actually think. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the difference between single and double heat sinks and nothing to do with the poster you quoted. Nothing. The dude was talking about the severe heat issues SHS inflicts on new players, issues that competent players dont face because doubles are a pure upgrade that they can afford. "Just l2p noob" is nonsense. It's just the same elitest spam you've been copy pasting into this thread. Are you Josephs roomate? Do you share a keyboard?

That logic goes for all players and is hardly elitist. Hold the fire button down and your mech will overheat. And just to let you know, I built that AC40 Jager with doubles that you claimed never overheats. A quick test in the mech lab quickly mythbusted that. I was responding to a particular paragraph in his quote. Go back and read both of our posts in their entirety before you lose you sh*t. It's funny how pixxed off people get over this issue, because I don't see it as a big deal. Heat is something everyone has to deal with and that was my point. This is the only game I know of that has a heat issue. You can run around indefinitely in Battlefield 3 with your finger on the trigger.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

That logic goes for all players and is hardly elitist. Hold the fire button down and your mech will overheat. And just to let you know, I built that AC40 Jager with doubles that you claimed never overheats. A quick test in the mech lab quickly mythbusted that. I was responding to a particular paragraph in his quote. Go back and read both of our posts in their entirety before you lose you sh*t. It's funny how pixxed off people get over this issue, because I don't see it as a big deal. Heat is something everyone has to deal with and that was my point. This is the only game I know of that has a heat issue. You can run around indefinitely in Battlefield 3 with your finger on the trigger.

-k

Given how competent you seem to be you probably forgot to put doubles into it. I'm done debating this stuff with you. You're no better than Joseph. The mech can clear it's entire ac20 ammo loadout before overheating if built correctly, something you failed to do.

Edited by Shumabot, 26 March 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Given how competent you seem to be you probably forgot to put doubles into it. I'm done debating this stuff with you. You're no worse than Joseph.

I have doubles in every one of my mechs. I am not going down the level of saying that my bla bla Awesome just kills it with singles. That said, there were some that I didn't buy doubles for them immediately because they aren't used nearly as much as other builds. Why invest in the mechs that I use least, right? At least enlighten us with your personal reason why this is such a crusade for you and causes so many cheesed off responses.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

I have doubles in every one of my mechs. I am not going down the level of saying that my bla bla Awesome just kills it with singles. That said, there were some that I didn't buy doubles for them immediately because they aren't used nearly as much as other builds. Why invest in the mechs that I use least, right? At least enlighten us with your personal reason why this is such a crusade for you and causes so many cheesed off responses.

-k

Because it's the games biggest problem with new player traction, for one. Because people like you constantly lie and defend what is plainly a bad system for two. Thirdly, post the mech. Post your Jager ac20 smurf build.

Show me it to prove that you're not just lying again.

[Loc Nar]

Quote

Please, do share one of these builds...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...32fac52af4320a2 -COM-2D Trollmando [Streak x3, MLas, ECM, Endo, Ferro, 195XL, SHS x10]

I've seen a DDC and an Awesome 8Q build as well that also benefits from SHS. I don't think anyone here is appreciating that not only do a few quirk builds req them for filling slots/tonnage, but each SHS adds the same hit points as a DHS to an internal structure, thereby padding the squishy bits inside...

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Of course I do. I've been making these choices for 30 years!
But the fact is it is a choice some players want to have to make. That doubles are better is not the point. The point is some players want the choice, having the choice does not detract from the game,

That is not the case. It does detract from the game, because it is still a noob trap. It is not like any of the other decisions you make, where both choices may have good or negative consequences. It's always a worse choice. But the new player doesn't know,and wastes time, effort and virtual currency on it. And if he's getting frustrated enough, it's a player less for the game, one plaer less to spend money on MC, one player less other players can fight with, it's another mouth that might speak negatively about the game.
If there was a clear gameplay perk due to it (like FPS is better for immersion, ensures that certain play styles do not dominate), then that might be acceptable, but it isn't.

Zabnicki said:

I'm too lazy to read all the posts so this is for the OP.

While understandable, you probably missed quite a few important points and thus are likely to add nothing to the discussion except another circular argumentation .

Quote

One of the biggest things to learn in this game is heat management. It is integral to Battletech on the table and Mechwarrior Online. It keeps that guy with the 4 or more PPC's from constantly spamming alphas, It forces you and everyone else to decide weather or not it is wise to Alpha high-heat weapons or to chain fire them. DHS drain more heat per second sure but, have the drawback of triple the space that could have been used for other parts/weapons/doodads. I got a few mechs that have only SHS in them and they work fine as I group weapons by ranges and I'm not constantly alpha striking throughout the match.

The biggest thing to learn about heat management in MW:O is:
It does not discourage alpha strikes.
Heat Capacity is usually much higher than the abilility of a mech to alpha. Heat dissipation is on the other hand so low that you can have the capability to alpha strikes 3 times, but someone chain.firing will not be able to keep firing much longer than someone that alphas all the time, and by the time either player overheats, they have dealt the same damage - but the alpha striker did it in less time than the chain-firer.

It could be different with a system with a lower capacity but a higher dissipation, but this isn't true for MW:O.

Basically, chain-firing is a bit like "conserving ammo" by not shooting the weapon when you could hit the target and deal full damage, but don't. If you fight someone that doesn't conserve ammo like this, he simply outdamages you - maybe he's out of ammo then, but you're dead and the ammo you have conserved lies useless in your wreck.

Chain-FIring should not be about conserving ammo, but about ensuring your weapon stays functional and doesn't jam or overheat, so t hat in the end - you might shoot slower than the alpha-striker, but the alpha.-striker has constantly jams so he loses effective damage output in the end. And the choice between chain-fire and alpha-strikes becomes situational - if you only have a brief moment to shoot, alpha away, but if you need to survive a prolonged engagement, chain-fire.

The interesting decision will be about identifying the situations where it's better to chain-fire, and where it's better to alpha.

[Shumabot]

Loc Nar, on 26 March 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...32fac52af4320a2 -COM-2D Trollmando [Streak x3, MLas, ECM, Endo, Ferro, 195XL, SHS x10]

I've seen a DDC and an Awesome 8Q build as well that also benefits from SHS. I don't think anyone here is appreciating that not only do a few quirk builds req them for filling slots/tonnage, but each SHS adds the same hit points as a DHS to an internal structure, thereby padding the squishy bits inside...

The streakmando, as has been said dozens of times in this thread, is the only mech made viable with SHS. DDCs and 8Qs with single heat sinks are hideously bad. They are about as far from viable as the earth is from the sun.

[Protection]

qki, on 26 March 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

[REDACTED]

Neither "improved" loadout matters. Yeah - in a goldfish test, you are right - except the game is not a goldfish test. Firing continuousl never happens the way your math tells you. Like I said - between terrain blocking shots, and lining up a good one, all those DHS are just redundant.

Yes - they are an improvement
No - [REDACTED] - I don't NEED them.

[REDACTED]

So your build is 100% inferior and you are mentally re-tarded.

You can say "Derp depr, I don't need them" all you want.

It doens't change the fact that your build is worse in every possible way except cost - which is totally irrelevant to any decent player.

Laserkid, on 26 March 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

What single heatsink are used practically for is assault mechs. Where critical space will sometimes not allow the use of DHS due to large weapon systems. Though MWO's hard point system limits this somewhat.

This is false. No such build exists.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Because it's the games biggest problem with new player traction, for one. Because people like you constantly lie and defend what is plainly a bad system for two. Thirdly, post the mech. Post your Jager ac20 smurf build.

Show me it to prove that you're not just lying again.

Jager DD, XL280 Stock, 2 AC20, like 6 tons of ammo, rest in sinks. It will overheat if you hold the trigger down.

It's all a conspiracy isn't it? The man holding you down when you start playing because you don't have DHS out the gate. You have enough posts in this forum and have been around a couple months in game, so why not save for what you need or want?

The biggest problem with new player retention is getting rickrolled every game because of the matchmaker and ECM. If they made the simple change of launching trial mechs in their own queue, then the SHS/DHS argument your trying to make is invalidated if your motivation in this is primarily to protect new players in trial mechs.

-k

[MustrumRidcully]

Loc Nar, on 26 March 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...32fac52af4320a2 -COM-2D Trollmando [Streak x3, MLas, ECM, Endo, Ferro, 195XL, SHS x10]

I've seen a DDC and an Awesome 8Q build as well that also benefits from SHS. I don't think anyone here is appreciating that not only do a few quirk builds req them for filling slots/tonnage, but each SHS adds the same hit points as a DHS to an internal structure, thereby padding the squishy bits inside...

I am not 100 % certain it was this thread, but I believe it amy have been. The value of SHS for "crit-padding" have been brought up. And I had a reply on that pointing out how little that value actually can be. Of course, I used the worst case example of the Gauss Rifle.

But hey, if you think it's really valuble, let's see it. Run me through the probabilities and damage outputs, show me the big differences. It's probably doable, with a bit of statistics and stochastic.

[Phatel]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Please, do share one of these builds...

Gauss Cat. You're welcome

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Jager DD, XL280 Stock, 2 AC20, like 6 tons of ammo, rest in sinks. It will overheat if you hold the trigger down.

It's all a conspiracy isn't it? The man holding you down when you start playing because you don't have DHS out the gate. You have enough posts in this forum and have been around a couple months in game, so why not save for what you need or want?

The biggest problem with new player retention is getting rickrolled every game because of the matchmaker and ECM. If they made the simple change of launching trial mechs in their own queue, then the SHS/DHS argument your trying to make is invalidated if your motivation in this is primarily to protect new players in trial mechs.

-k

No. It does't. It has a 71% coolant quotient. That reaches the high 90's in either ice map. It can literally fire until it runs out of ammo on those maps. Two AC20s has the same heat per second as 3 medium lasers. If you can't fire 3 medium lasers practically forever in a 65 ton mech you made a mech that is thoroughly terrible.

I want DHS changed so that players don't get hazed when they enter the game. You want a stock only lobby for new players. What makes stocks worse? Mostly the lack of double heat sinks. You are treating the symptom with a bad cure that would fragment the community more and take months to implement. Your fix is bad.

Phatel, on 26 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Gauss Cat. You're welcome

That's been proven wrong three separate times with probably a dozen separate posts in this thread. You're unwelcome go away.

[Ryvucz]

Some mechs don't make good use of double heat sinks due to critical slots.

[Shumabot]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Some mechs don't make good use of double heat sinks due to critical slots.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

No. It does't. It has a 71% coolant quotient. That reaches the high 90's in either ice map. It can literally fire until it runs out of ammo on those maps. Two AC20s has the same heat per second as 3 medium lasers. If you can't fire 3 medium lasers practically forever in a 65 ton mech you made a mech that is thoroughly terrible.

I want DHS changed so that players don't get hazed when they enter the game. You want a stock only lobby for new players. What makes stocks worse? Mostly the lack of double heat sinks. You are treating the symptom with a bad cure that would fragment the community more and take months to implement. Your fix is bad.

To be more specific I ran the build on Forest Colony, but you shouldn't rely on any particular map to come up in regard to heat management of a build. You can accuse me of saying L2P or anything like that but I saw it myself when a friend of mine tried to play. New players have no concept of heat management and come from games where they can fire as many times as they like, alpha as many times as they like with no consequence. New players overheat because no one has told them not to fire continuously, well and trial builds have horrific combinations of weapons such as ER large lasers.

Implementing a trial only queue has been brought up in the past. This isn't the first time. And it shouldn't be that hard to implement. If DHS are to be a viable upgrade they will always be better, hands down. That's how DHS function. Better heat at the cost of space.

If you want a fix that makes the most practical sense, you would have single heat sinks only in the engine and the option for doubles outside. You'd also drop the massive price on doubles. In order for IS tech to have a prayer against clan tech, it wouldn't seem like something they'd do though. In the short term they are moving towards user defined trial mechs but taking WAY too long to make it happen.

-k

[Ryvucz]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Some mechs, don't make good use of double heat sinks due to critical slots.

[Shumabot]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Some mechs, don't make good use of double heat sinks due to critical slots.

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

To be more specific I ran the build on Forest Colony, but you shouldn't rely on any particular map to come up in regard to heat management of a build. You can accuse me of saying L2P or anything like that but I saw it myself when a friend of mine tried to play. New players have no concept of heat management and come from games where they can fire as many times as they like, alpha as many times as they like with no consequence. New players overheat because no one has told them not to fire continuously, well and trial builds have horrific combinations of weapons such as ER large lasers.

Implementing a trial only queue has been brought up in the past. This isn't the first time. And it shouldn't be that hard to implement. If DHS are to be a viable upgrade they will always be better, hands down. That's how DHS function. Better heat at the cost of space.

If you want a fix that makes the most practical sense, you would have single heat sinks only in the engine and the option for doubles outside. You'd also drop the massive price on doubles. In order for IS tech to have a prayer against clan tech, it wouldn't seem like something they'd do though. In the short term they are moving towards user defined trial mechs but taking WAY too long to make it happen.

-k

Considering this argument started when you claimed it had severe heat problems, just like "all cheese builds" it's nice that you're backpedaling so hard.

I argued for a system like 10 pages ago that would make it so that DHS weren't a straight upgrade. I think that the presence of in engine heat sinks is a big issue that needs to be addressed and is probably the core of what makes DHS hard to balance. They're in there because the TT had them, but they don't actually make sense from a gameplay perspective (or a logical one, really).

[qki]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

So your build is 100% inferior and you are mentally re-tarded.

You can say "Derp depr, I don't need them" all you want.

It doens't change the fact that your build is worse in every possible way except cost - which is totally irrelevant to any decent player.




This is false. No such build exists.

You quoted the wrong part of my post, herp derp.

Like I said - you owe me for one engine - your "improvements" didn't improve jack ****. Sure - my lyran scout mech has better heat efficiency now. Only it didn't change a thing - It still plays the same as it did with single heatsinks. Your 100% superior build is closer to 100% redundant. There has been no magical improvement in not shutting down due to heat, because that was never a problem to begin with.

It only proves how much you suck, if you need all that tech just to make the mech work, when I had no problems with it.

And that has been my point the whole time - you don't need to slap DHS on everything - you can do just fine with SHS and a brain.

And the age-old argument of "when 2 pilots of equal skill, piloting the same mechs, one ow which has DHS, meet in battle" is void in MWO.

Because the winner of your "equal mech, equal skill, DHS vs SHS" contest will most likely be decided by a hail of fire from a third mech that was there to assist his buddy. SHS gives an advantage, but it does not create an impassable barrier, and the advantage is not enough to decide the victor of a fight all on its own.
Get it now?

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Considering this argument started when you claimed it had severe heat problems, just like "all cheese builds" it's nice that you're backpedaling so hard.

I argued for a system like 10 pages ago that would make it so that DHS weren't a straight upgrade. I think that the presence of in engine heat sinks is a big issue that needs to be addressed and is probably the core of what makes DHS hard to balance. They're in there because the TT had them, but they don't actually make sense from a gameplay perspective (or a logical one, really).

An AC20 mech will overheat with the fire button held down on all but the coldest of maps with a maximum of sinks. You can test this out, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

You weren't here when DHS first came into the game, they were originally implemented differently or rather "bugged" as some would say, so in response the DHS were buffed by PGI and given a constant rate of heat dissipation because players were finding they weren't as effective that they thought they would be. To date there have been no further changes in regard to heat sinks or heat dissipation on a global scale.

So why all the rage? Are there friends of yours that tried playing but quit because they kept overheating? Can't afford doubles yet on all your mechs? Come on Shumie, get on the couch. Talk to Daddy.

-k