1107 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 March 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

I disagree that this is selfish.

Underpowered, subpar equipment is equivalen to a noobie trap.

A new player comes into the game, things MGs sound cool, I make a 4 MG Spider, that will rock!
And he ends wasting his first C-Bills on subpar equipment and is then frustrated by his consistent poor performance. Eventually he learns that MGs are generally considered underpowered and weak, and he is angry that he was duped into buying this gear.

There would be two ways to improve the situation:
1) No MGs at all. The player will not be tricked into buying something inferior, and he will take something that can work and he just has to master it, eventually becoming succesful and happy.
2) Balance the MG so it's worth its weight, crit slots and hard points. The player that wanted to use MGs will have a decent weapon and he can now learn to master it and eventually become succesful, increasing his enjoyment of the game.

This can be fixed by allowing us to use the Proving grounds before making purchases final. Lil Billy makes a Mech with MGs tests it finds he doesn't like it. Pops back into the Lab and changes to SSRMs or something else.

Solution #1 removes the choice from those who WANT MGs (Crazy, I know).

Solution #2 The better choice.

So applying that logic to this issue, removing singles is the wrong answer. I am still saying we need a faster venting cycle, but that is a different discussion I think.

[MuKen]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

In every game I have played over the last 34 years, players have had to earn better equipment over time.

Do you just not play PVP games or what? The majority of them, in fact damn near 100% of them that have a serious competitive scene do not give you access to better stuff for more time played. Fighting games, FPS games, RTS games, etc. All the ones with the most seriously competitive leagues let the players distinguish themselves with skill, not gear.

Getting better gear over time has no place in contests of skill. That's for pve games.

Edited by MuKen, 26 March 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[AndyHill]

At least WoT (the MWO role model) and WoW require you to grind the good stuff with sweat and blood mixed with real money.

[Atheus]

Anyone who doesn't understand by now that every mech build is better with DHS after 25 pages of people posting weird, crappy SHS builds that see vast improvements after being upgraded to DHS is either a total troll, or just a tool. If you are one of these people, just accept it, and embrace it. You will grow as a player.

For the hopelessly ignorant — I'll help. If your mech is a light, medium, or heavy, start by upgrading to DHS, and add endo-steel, then build from there. If it's an assault, add DHS, but do not automatically add endo-steel. If you don't have enough crit space for both DHS and endo-steel, get DHS. It's better. Always.

If you have tried these things, but still can't figure out how to make it better with DHS, then feel free to come in here and try to use it as an example of a mech that can't be improved with DHS. Some generous poster will then take your mech and make it one or all of (faster)(more durable)(more heat efficient)(more powerful weapons)(more ammo), and in 0 cases (worse).

qki, on 26 March 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

-snip-
Name one (one is enough) situation, where your "optimal" build is better than mine. Hint - cooling is not it - besies being more expensive, this has absolutely no advantage due to extra heatsinks, despite what the smurf says. In practice, sustained fire never overheats the mech anyway.

You're a fool if after seeing two superior variations of your build you're still spouting this nonsense. Your terrible design will overheat after fighting for a mere 12 seconds continuously in either of the hot maps. The one Andy Hill did for you will be able to fire continuously for over 20 seconds on those maps, and the one Protection built is fully 8% faster than yours while still being substantially more efficient. Give up on lecturing anyone on superior mech design. You've made it abundantly clear you are not an expert.

Edited by Atheus, 26 March 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MuKen, on 26 March 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Do you just not play PVP games or what? The majority of them, in fact damn near 100% of them that have a serious competitive scene do not give you access to better stuff for more time played. Fighting games, FPS games, RTS games, etc. All the ones with the most seriously competitive leagues let the players distinguish themselves with skill, not gear.

Getting better gear over time has no place in contests of skill. That's for pve games.

I'm here to fight the Clans, Not compete in a sport. Also if you are truly skilled you can win using whatever you are given by improvising and adapting. If you can only win by having the best gear you are not very good.

[Kdogg788]

MuKen, on 26 March 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Do you just not play PVP games or what? The majority of them, in fact damn near 100% of them that have a serious competitive scene do not give you access to better stuff for more time played. Fighting games, FPS games, RTS games, etc. All the ones with the most seriously competitive leagues let the players distinguish themselves with skill, not gear.

Getting better gear over time has no place in contests of skill. That's for pve games.

Can't say that I'm shocked you guys are still debating this. Are you sure we are talking about the same game system here?

Fighting games and just about every RTS game don't allow for progression of any kind. You can argue that Mechwarrior Tactics might, but I don't know anyone who actually plays it. You choose a pre-set character or faction and fight with predetermined stock characters or factions.

FPS games are where you have it wrong. I played a ton of Battlefield Bad Company 2, and I could tell you for sure Magnum Ammo is a necessary upgrade, but unlike the equipment you can buy in this game, is only unlockable after reaching a relatively high level. So here I am, a level 1 getting smoked by level 50s with every unlock, with no chance of even equipping the gear that they have until I reached a very high level of experience.

MWO does not give you better gear directly for time played. It is a choice of the player of what they want to buy at any given time with Cbills or in some cases MC (actual money).

-k

[Kdogg788]

Atheus, on 26 March 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Anyone who doesn't understand by now that every mech build is better with DHS after 25 pages of people posting weird, crappy SHS builds that see vast improvements after being upgraded to DHS is either a total troll, or just a tool. If you are one of these people, just accept it, and embrace it. You will grow as a player.

For the hopelessly ignorant — I'll help. If your mech is a light, medium, or heavy, start by upgrading to DHS, and add endo-steel, then build from there. If it's an assault, add DHS, but do not automatically add endo-steel. If you don't have enough crit space for both DHS and endo-steel, get DHS. It's better. Always.

If you have tried these things, but still can't figure out how to make it better with DHS, then feel free to come in here and try to use it as an example of a mech that can't be improved with DHS. Some generous poster will then take your mech and make it one or all of (faster)(more durable)(more heat efficient)(more powerful weapons)(more ammo), and in 0 cases (worse).

I wouldn't go so far as some of these clowns who are trying to make their SHS builds look like world beaters. DHS is supposed to be a direct upgrade, but one you can make when and if you want to make it. I've had mechs that I've driven to level first or bought and used GXP for the basics, that I didn't immediately put DHS on, because I wanted to invest that elsewhere at the time. Putting DHS on all mechs and increasing all prices by 1.5 mil as stated above somewhere in this monster text is not necessary. I still like to have the "choice" of upgrading when I feel it's necessary.

It's been amusing debating this because there are several sub-topics happening here, but I'd be shocked if anything is addressed by PGI in light of the upcoming clan tech introduction. For something to be considered a problem, a great majority of players need to be speaking out against it and on this topic it seems the balance would be a little towards the "against" faction of posters. Take ECM for example, 90% against its current implementation, yet no real action has been taken.

-k

[Bishop Steiner]

Funny part is, few if any have argued SHS as better. Most of the intelligent arguments have argued CHOICE is better, and that keeping close to canon on an IP is better.

Failtrap being used to much on this argument is that the game is a pure pvp deathmatch type game, ala CoD. Posters with the time in game as Protection and Mustrum have, should know that as slow as MWO has been at growing, that is not the endgame. The meta was designed around a persistent world type scenario (hence the repair and rearm that the short sighted managed to get needed in favor of the commie game meta we have now). When and if the game is ever "complete", and PGI desires to add an Unreal Tournament TDM to it, than insta access to everything, while playing in that mode, would make sense. Along with weapon drops, power UPS, healing potions and respawns. (ignoring the fact that we are using limited tdm type scenarios as they are fast, and better for beta testing, and easier to supply than CW, hence allowing more code fixing, faster)
using the tdm argument against SHS Should mean all mechs and weapons are free and instantly obtainable. As in a good competitive PvP.
after all, its not a "fair competitive tdm uber pvp game" if Timmy has an Atlas and I can only afford an AWESOME (ATLAS, being a unilateral upgrade over the Awesome, just ask any pro-gamer, or failing that, the leet forum warriors posing as them on this thread).

Make up your mind kiddies. This is Mechwarruor, not Canada. Everything isn't given to you here.

[Atheus]

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

I wouldn't go so far as some of these clowns who are trying to make their SHS builds look like world beaters. DHS is supposed to be a direct upgrade, but one you can make when and if you want to make it. I've had mechs that I've driven to level first or bought and used GXP for the basics, that I didn't immediately put DHS on, because I wanted to invest that elsewhere at the time. Putting DHS on all mechs and increasing all prices by 1.5 mil as stated above somewhere in this monster text is not necessary. I still like to have the "choice" of upgrading when I feel it's necessary.

It's been amusing debating this because there are several sub-topics happening here, but I'd be shocked if anything is addressed by PGI in light of the upcoming clan tech introduction. For something to be considered a problem, a great majority of players need to be speaking out against it and on this topic it seems the balance would be a little towards the "against" faction of posters. Take ECM for example, 90% against its current implementation, yet no real action has been taken.

-k

Did you ever buy a mech and just pilot it without customizing it and think "yeah, this works pretty well as-is"? Don't answer. It's rhetorical. That's the mech new players are piloting, by the way. Seem like a good idea? You can answer that one if you want, but please don't do it for my benefit.

[Twisted Power]

Uh, I don't know if a lot of you guys posting in this thread know about DHS being 1.4 but that is and is not true.

The heat sinks in the engine (so if you have a 250 rating 10HS but if you have a 200 rating is 8HS) are actually 2.0 heat efficiency.
Only the double heat sinks outside the engine are 1.4.

Edited by Twisted Power, 26 March 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Working pretty well is how starting Mechs should work. Pretty well allows for me to say, "Yeah, but if I swap X for Y and L for M I think I will have a beast!"

[MuKen]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

I'm here to fight the Clans, Not compete in a sport.

When this game has a pve component, you'll have a point.

Quote

If you can only win by having the best gear you are not very good.

That's exactly the point. Distinguish yourself by your skills, if you need gear to feel like you're further along than where you started, then you are not further along than where you started.

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Fighting games and just about every RTS game don't allow for progression of any kind. You can argue that Mechwarrior Tactics might, but I don't know anyone who actually plays it. You choose a pre-set character or faction and fight with predetermined stock characters or factions.

You're just repeating what I said.... they don't put in a progression system. Because it would be stupid for and counterproductive to making a competitive game. Street fighter would be terrible if you had to unlock the shoryuken and improve its level by playing a lot.

I'm saying progression isn't put in good competitive games, and you're saying "yeah, because they don't put it in." I don't see how that's a point.

Quote

FPS games are where you have it wrong. I played a ton of Battlefield Bad Company 2, and I could tell you for sure Magnum Ammo is a necessary upgrade, but unlike the equipment you can buy in this game, is only unlockable after reaching a relatively high level. So here I am, a level 1 getting smoked by level 50s with every unlock, with no chance of even equipping the gear that they have until I reached a very high level of experience.

And that's exactly why that game doesn't have a competitive scene that will ever be taken seriously.

Edited by MuKen, 26 March 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[Kdogg788]

MuKen, on 26 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

When this game has a pve component, you'll have a point.



That's exactly the point. Distinguish yourself by your skills, if you need gear to convince yourself you're further along then where you started, then you are not further along then where you started.



Yeah, that's exactly my point. They don't put in a progression system because it would be stupid for and counterproductive to making a competitive game. Street fighter would be terrible if you had to unlock the shoryuken and improve its level by playing a lot.

I'm saying progression isn't put in competitive games, and you're saying "yeah, because they don't put it in." I don't see how that's a point.



And that's exactly why that game doesn't have a competitive scene that will ever be taken seriously.

So in effect, you're saying the MWO will only be validated if it's an accepted "tournament, E-sport, competition game" whereby no one is differentiated by their equipment. By that logic, you're inferring that there should be no customization and we should all run stock mechs so it would all be "fair".

-k

[MuKen]

qki, on 26 March 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

No HS in legs

Even out of water, it has better cooling than your mech in water.

Quote

right. !00% better? No. 100% more redundant. Also - more vulnerable to critical hits and a marked drop in cooling evviciency when taking damage.

It could lose every single heatsink that's outside the engine, and still have better cooling efficiency than your mech.

Quote

sustained fire never overheats the mech anyway.

That's just plain false.

Kdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

So in effect, you're saying the MWO will only be validated if it's an accepted "tournament, E-sport, competition game" whereby no one is differentiated by their equipment. By that logic, you're inferring that there should be no customization and we should all run stock mechs so it would all be "fair".

-k

"Everything should be as balanced as possible" is not the same as "everything should be the same". Taking your opponent's stance and changing it to something else that's easier to argue against is the most common of logical fallacies.

[Joseph Mallan]

MuKen, on 26 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

When this game has a pve component, you'll have a point.

I have a point now. You are just stuck in a single mindset and cannot see the big picture. There is(will be) a place for tournament players like you and those like me who came for the game that was advertised... 3050 Clan invasion and beyond. I have no desire to be #1 I want to be be standing on Huntress when the ilKhan's head rolls. That is the game I signed up for.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 March 2013 - 05:48 AM.

[MuKen]

This conversation has a context, remember? Are you saying there should be two versions of the game, one where SHS and DHS are balanced, and one where they are not? Will you hold to that for every discussion where we talk about whether or not the more expensive piece of equipment should be better?

[qki]

Atheus, on 26 March 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Anyone who doesn't understand by now that every mech build is better with DHS after 25 pages of people posting weird, crappy SHS builds that see vast improvements after being upgraded to DHS is either a total troll, or just a tool. If you are one of these people, just accept it, and embrace it. You will grow as a player.

For the hopelessly ignorant — I'll help. If your mech is a light, medium, or heavy, start by upgrading to DHS, and add endo-steel, then build from there. If it's an assault, add DHS, but do not automatically add endo-steel. If you don't have enough crit space for both DHS and endo-steel, get DHS. It's better. Always.

If you have tried these things, but still can't figure out how to make it better with DHS, then feel free to come in here and try to use it as an example of a mech that can't be improved with DHS. Some generous poster will then take your mech and make it one or all of (faster)(more durable)(more heat efficient)(more powerful weapons)(more ammo), and in 0 cases (worse).



You're a fool if after seeing two superior variations of your build you're still spouting this nonsense. Your terrible design will overheat after fighting for a mere 12 seconds continuously in either of the hot maps. The one Andy Hill did for you will be able to fire continuously for over 20 seconds on those maps, and the one Protection built is fully 8% faster than yours while still being substantially more efficient. Give up on lecturing anyone on superior mech design. You've made it abundantly clear you are not an expert.

[REDACTED]

Neither "improved" loadout matters. Yeah - in a goldfish test, you are right - except the game is not a goldfish test. Firing continuousl never happens the way your math tells you. Like I said - between terrain blocking shots, and lining up a good one, all those DHS are just redundant.

Yes - they are an improvement
No - [REDACTED] - I don't NEED them.

[REDACTED]

Edited by Viterbi, 26 March 2013 - 08:02 AM.
Removed offensive language

[Bishop Steiner]

@Altheus

Lets see.... Still running my CN9-D bone stock. If missiles stay as weak as current, that'll change, but it ain't the SHS that are the dealbreaker. I average 2 kills and 400 damage in it, so while not a world beater, I hardly feel handicapped. Of course I'm sure you guys all average 5-6 kills every match, with your optimized specials, which makes me wonder why you care what your teammates are packing, since you guys do all the heavy lifting anyhow.

Am I saying it's better by having SHS? NOPE. But I've never felt the need to spend the money to upgrade, either. I also do rather well running the HBK-4J, CTF-1X, AWS-8T and even do pretty good in a stock K2. In all cases, DHS is an improvement, but oddly, the ammo stores are far more a limiting factor than the SHS.

In fact, the general crap nature of trials ain't the SHS, but because the doubled armor has made most stock loadouts, and definitely ammo stores, inadequate. The simple fact that everyone builds their "optimized" customs around the alpha strike (traditionally reserved for desperation or coup de grace), instead of sustainable fire aggravates thing.

[Joseph Mallan]

MuKen, on 26 March 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

This conversation has a context, remember? Are you saying there should be two versions of the game, one where SHS and DHS are balanced, and one where they are not? Will you hold to that for every discussion where we talk about whether or not the more expensive piece of equipment should be better?

Actually they do need balanced. Doubles should in fact be double effective to a single sink. After that it is the players choice if they want dubs or not. All I am seeing here is, 'I want dubs for free cause I have no patience and don't want to build up the funds to buy them. That is all this is about. Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! I want doubles on everything cause they are better.' I said it before, I will say it again.

Earn 'em!

Play the game, build up the funds and buy them. 1.5 Mil is a few hours play. Once you got em they are yours to keep. No lazy mode for you!

[MuKen]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Actually they do need balanced. Doubles should in fact be double effective to a single sink. After that it is the players choice if they want dubs or not. All I am seeing here is, 'I want dubs for free cause I have no patience and don't want to build up the funds to buy them. That is all this is about. Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! I want doubles on everything cause they are better.' I said it before, I will say it again.

Earn 'em!

Play the game, build up the funds and buy them. 1.5 Mil is a few hours play. Once you got em they are yours to keep. No lazy mode for you!

So you're not only backtracking what you were just saying, you've resorted to caricaturizing any dissenting opinions. I think we're done here.