1107 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

You're the one driving me to drink.

Then you are taking this far to seriously. We have no need to get rid of single sinks. You don't like em. I upgrade every build I buy with em. But that doesn't mean you take away choice.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Then you are taking this far to seriously. We have no need to get rid of single sinks. You don't like em. I upgrade every build I buy with em. But that doesn't mean you take away choice.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I do.

Well, 4mans. It's hard to get 8 peeps together.

Ok, so I know it's unrelated, but we're having an 8 man tourney a week from this coming Saturday on the 6th of April. Why not come and show everyone your knowledge and skill? There should be at least one or two teams from my regiment present as well as a couple other Kurita units representing.

Still, you have a better chance of seeing Elvis than you do SHS being removed or completely overhauled.

-k

[chewie]

wow


24 pages on why SHS should or should not be removed.

So, to sum up. If it cannot cool your modified, unbalanced mech quick enough to do the constant destruction you want it to, it therefore is pointless and should be removed.



So does that mean when clan tech and weapons come along, will you demand they remove all useless IS mechs and weapons?




This thread should be left to die as you can argue about it till the cows come home folks, and you'll still never be happy about it (unless you get what you want cause you know best).

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 25 March 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Ok, so I know it's unrelated, but we're having an 8 man tourney a week from this coming Saturday on the 6th of April. Why not come and show everyone your knowledge and skill? There should be at least one or two teams from my regiment present as well as a couple other Kurita units representing.

Still, you have a better chance of seeing Elvis than you do SHS being removed or completely overhauled.

-k

I'm hardly the warboss of our groups 8mans. I don't think we do much for tournaments outside of occasional 2/2/2/2 matches for fun when enough of us are around and get an invite from reddit or something. Most of us thoroughly dislike poptart-the-game, so competitive 8 mans are a bit of an annoyance.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'm hardly the warboss of our groups 8mans. I don't think we do much for tournaments outside of occasional 2/2/2/2 matches for fun when enough of us are around and get an invite from reddit or something. Most of us thoroughly dislike poptart-the-game, so competitive 8 mans are a bit of an annoyance.

Well the information can be found on the Kurita board if you are interested. It's still almost two weeks away, so there's time to think about it and get a team together.

-k

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Then you are taking this far to seriously. We have no need to get rid of single sinks. You don't like em. I upgrade every build I buy with em. But that doesn't mean you take away choice.

Joe, you've just shown there is no choice.

Just an arbitrary grind to get the the heatsink choice you will use for ever more.

I'm not really concerned with this argument but it's really not a choice when your option is to be worse in every way possible or do the smart thing and take doubles.

[AndyHill]

The single heat sinks' role in the game (or lack thereof) is not so much a matter of tactical simulation gameplay, but rather the lack of the strategic component (metagame). BTech has natural progression in hardware and DHS are an upgrade on the tabletop as well - although not quite as prominently effective as in MWO.

The heat sinks are a smallish issue, but the lack of hardware tiers will bite us all in the butt shortly; consider the clans. Every single bit of their hardware is exactly like the double heatsink, an upgrade in just about every way imaginable. And after that every single piece of IS hardware will fit in the game just as well as the SHS of today. I think that's the real worry and will have a much bigger impact, the SHS issue is just a symptom of far bigger things to come unless there are drastic redesigns in the metagame.

[MustrumRidcully]

chewie, on 25 March 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

wow


24 pages on why SHS should or should not be removed.

So, to sum up. If it cannot cool your modified, unbalanced mech quick enough to do the constant destruction you want it to, it therefore is pointless and should be removed.

No, if you can't make a decent single heat sink build that has a chance against a DHS enhanced build, then I want single heat sinks removed. Because I want to fight you and know that I either beat you with skill, or you beat me with skill, and not that I beat you because I had the uber gear and you did not. When I win, I want to win because I was smart, and when I lose, I want to lose because the enemy was smarter.
I don't want to win because some guy used subpar gear.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 25 March 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sifright, on 25 March 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Joe, you've just shown there is no choice.

Just an arbitrary grind to get the the heatsink choice you will use for ever more.

I'm not really concerned with this argument but it's really not a choice when your option is to be worse in every way possible or do the smart thing and take doubles.

Unless someone wants to use them..

Machine Guns are totally useless in this game. Yet folk just gotta have them.

So applying this logic Machine guns should be tossed to the can too.(As I once advocated)

[Wildstreak]

chewie, on 25 March 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

24 pages on why SHS should or should not be removed.

I consider it more 6-12 pages of decent debate and the rest filled with hate rhetoric and bad positions about several subjects not supported by facts.

Like I said in this post, that would be real easy.

Don't see a problem with SHS when I can take a Trial build like the STK-4N, play against Custom builds and win. Had one of my memorable matches when it got down to me in the Trial STK-4N vs a Custom Stalker, everyone else Dead.
The Custom lost.

I can run a Trial build just as good as a Custom build using DHS.

Pilot skill matters.

[Chavette]

You are wrong, paul himself packs singles, how dare you question his build!!

Paul Innoye, on 25 March 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

My personal CPLT-K2 has 19 single heat sinks on it. The cooling amounts are as follows:

[Protection]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Machine Guns are totally useless in this game. Yet folk just gotta have them.

So applying this logic Machine guns should be tossed to the can too.(As I once advocated)

Or changed so that they have a meaningful function even at higher levels of play.

[AndyHill]

Ok, not a useful build, but one thing led to another and I thought I'd share my attempt at a world record in cramming single heat sinks into an ML-boat Awesome. So I put in quite a few: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ce242fc229a5308

It might have a little lowish armor, but I'm quite proud of the build.

And here's the kick.

In MWO the mobile SHS storage is not heat neutral. In reality that thing would probably reverse global warming all by itself, but in MWO it's not even heat neutral.

Edited by AndyHill, 25 March 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[Mercules]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Or changed so that they have a meaningful function even at higher levels of play.

So what happens when the Clan Ultra AC/10 comes along, lighter and taking up less slots. It's nothing but an upgrade with no drawback(since there is no Repair & Reload where you could lose it or it might be expensive) to using one over the IS AC/10. Clan LRMs outpace IS by a LONG way. Shall we just remove IS when Clan get introduced?

No, you HAVE to have a value system that weights everything based on it's function in the game and match according to that. With that in place Single Heat Sink mechs will have a place being the lower value mech that alternately lets you bring a higher level mech to the party. Otherwise, yes, Battletech and thus Mechwarrior are unbalanced with major upgrades that make no sense not to take when you can customize.

[Joseph Mallan]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Or changed so that they have a meaningful function even at higher levels of play.

At higher levels of Play you should be able to afford the Doubles anyway. (unless I misunderstand your meaning of higher level of play)

People want the option of singles. Removing them because some folks only like dubs. Well that is just as selfish as my saying we can get rid of MGs cause I never use em.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Looking back on it, MW4 did a lot of things right within the mechlab, even if it wasn't true to CBT.
Endo Steel vs Standard Internals - Standard Internals were heavier but halved all transfer damage, which was useful for zombies. Again, internal choice was dependent on the mech, but it wasn't mandatory for all mechs that could fit it.

Ferro vs Reflective vs Reactive - While each ones value was very dependent on the meta, this was a nice change, you could either make yourself more resistant to certain types of weapons at the cost of weight, or you just run the standard armor. These were much better choices than what we currently have.

XL vs Regular Engine - The only difference between the two was that Reg Engines had double the torso internals to that of XLs to compensate for the bad speed, a mod also gave them a higher heat threshold as well. Again, considering how much Reg Engines are valued in competitive play, I would love to see this kind of thing make a return as well.

Std vs DHS - MW4 didn't make any distinctions (though Clan mechs had better heat dissipation per heat sink), and this was a good thing. Rather than try and implement a broken system, they just scrapped it and put focus into other things. Though it would be cool to see some sort of balance struck between the two (and in an interesting way), it won't affect stock mechs well, that's for sure.

As it stands, there really are not any real gameplay oriented choices behind these items outside of the engines, and this is something that needs to be rectified. You want a good money sink is one that is perpetual, a one time upgrade is not. Example, I don't even bother with a new mech until I upgrade its heat sinks. In a system where both are good options, I will test both systems at least once, and between new builds, updated meta, etc, I may change between the two multiple times making a stronger game and better money sinks. SHS, like MGuns and Flamers, need to change, especially without any equipment tier systems.

Edit: I think the only reason people want them to be removed, is either they don't trust PGI to implement a good balancing system between the two HS, or that PGI isn't willing to change them, in which case a tier system would need to be created (highly doubtful) or that they need to be removed because they are stupid.

Edited by majora incarnate, 25 March 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

GRIMM11, on 22 March 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

OP are you kidding? For example the Awesome with internal and external armors upgraded, then you have a bunch of laser weapons. You have NO crit space to give up for 1.4 heat dissipation per 3 crit slots of a double heat sink. some builds have issues with weight, some with critical space. That is why single heat sinks exist. What I want to see is the ability to mix the two in a single build, that would be true customization and there is no valid reason for it to not be possible in a simulator type game.

Two different systems, requiring two different processes, kinda like radiator fluid. Ever put the wrong kind in your car? let me tell you, it will eat away the engine, radiator tubing, radiator, water pump, and thermostat. They are not compatible with one another. Also like putting diesel in a non diesel car...

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

At higher levels of Play you should be able to afford the Doubles anyway. (unless I misunderstand your meaning of higher level of play)

People want the option of singles. Removing them because some folks only like dubs. Well that is just as selfish as my saying we can get rid of MGs cause I never use em.

Stop speaking for other people. You don't represent them and your inference that everyone wants a broken tiered system of pay for performance is patently wrong.

[Terran123rd]

Alright. Then I'll save him the trouble of speaking for me (though he is doing an excellent job). I want single heat sinks. Not only is more choice good, I've come across several occasions where singles were the better choice.

Saying we can't have them because you don't like them is selfish...kind of like telling people to stop playing in a way they find fun because it's making your kdr go down is selfish.