1107 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Radko, on 26 March 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Cost merely adds more barriers between new players and fun, competetive builds.

Then why have ANY costs?

The issue is cost. The issue is not SHS. The issue is not competitive builds. The issue is that an un-upgraded stock mech is weighted exactly the same as a fully upgraded tweeked mech customized to a particular user's desires when building matches.

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

RnR was terrible at the highest levels when it was still in place -- because high level teams almost never lost, they were free to run what they wanted. So we were using optimized AC/20 Cats, Gausscats, Warboss Atlai, and 300XL Jenners when we faced opponents using inferior equipment and running with 75% of their ammunition. So almost every game was a slaughter, for us, so we kept raking in more money, even with RnR, and we kept having to face less-well-equipped opponents.

It wasn't enjoyable. Once in a while we got to face a real team, like Steel Jaguar or Wolfs Spiders or something, but 90% of our games were PUG slaughters. Most of us had auto-repair on the whole time, paid no attention to the mechanic at all, and just kept bringing home the C-Bills.

Separate out the pug-stomping issue. Even PUGging I could make enough money to buy new things, but many others were complaining about how they couldn't run their uber optimized Atlas with 14 tons of Artemis and make a profit.

[Fenix0742]

Jakob Knight, on 26 March 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I used it as an example, but I can give you an actual situation if you wish. My AWS-8R has a total of 27 Single Heat Sinks, translating to 27 heat dissipation. From my own configuration attempts, I know the most doubles I can fit on that same configuration would be about 18 doubles (being generous). While that is more efficient in terms of tonnage, the heat dissipation would end up being 25.2, a -reduction- of 1.8 heat dissipation. As I have no weapon slots remaining to fill, this setup means I find single heat sinks to be -better- than doubles in this situation. On my Catapult, by comparison, I need tonnage more, and thus the doubles are more efficient.

The above are hard facts, since you seem to want to nitpick instead of understanding the point I was making. Now, that is solved, and the result is the same. I hope this was not the waste of time you seem to have made it.

But your "hard facts" are completely wrong. Engine double heatsinks give you full 2.0 dissapation.
10 engine dubs is 20 dissapation + 8 additional @ 1.4 comes out to 11.2 for a total of 31.2, clearly greater than 27.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Radko,

In truth, it did not, for the most part, it did just the opposite. Belt having to rearm and repair, most people found running maxtech builds prohibitively expensive, even if they won. You might run an LRM boat a couple may he's, then switched to a Hunchback for a dozen to make money to use the LRMboat DDC again. Assault mechs in Battletech, much like using top tech in real war, was generally not profitable, so they were only used when the stakes were high enough to damn the cost.

In Closed Beta, most people were running Hunchys, Centurions and Catapults, all with standard engine, with some Jenners and Assaults added for versatilty. In other words the exact same level of tech used in the Trial Mechs, and first purchase mechs the newbie's had. If anything, during that period of CB we had more equipment parity in MWo than anytime before or since.

The stink came fro. The twitch shooter crowds that want to be able to run the max loadout every single match. We see far more disparity NOW than just about any time. And the only way to remove that disparity (not accounting for skill, obviously) would be to just make all weapons and mechs insta available for all, in which case there is nothing to work toward, and the game becomes the full repetitive rut that UnReal Tournament became. Great for some one looking to kill 15 minutes, boring to anyone looking for anything more immersive.

[Tesunie]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Please, do share one of these builds...

One of my Stalker are built with single heatsinks. It's got 6 med lasers, and 4 LRM5s. Sure, I could put in double heatsinks, improve my heart by .04 and go maybe 5kph faster, but at the cost of a lot of c-bills that isn't needed. A little slower doesn't hurt my mech, and the 0.04 extra dissipation isn't a huge deal. I also tested this with a 4 PPC stalker, and it only really improved my engine a little.

Not saying double heatsinks wouldn't be beneficial, but I don't always need it.

Also, if R&R returned, then you might want to run a cheaper build that doesn't have expensive double heatsinks, XL engines, etc. Without R&R, there isn't a reason not to. (Though I will admit to wanting to play a little closer to lore with some of my mechs, another reason to keep single heatsinks.)

[Kattspya]

This thread has been extremely informative. I've learned exactly which posters to ignore. I've also learned that some people that are nerdy enough to play TT games can still produce several hundred posts claiming 1+1!=2. That astounds me but is helpful for filtering out incompetents and blowhards.

Shuma, if you ever run out of spirits, hit me up. But not in the coming weeks as I have to do some serious damage to my liver to forget that a human could claim that about double sustained DPS isn't an upgrade. Jesus wept

[Fenix0742]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Belt having to rearm and repair, most people found running maxtech builds prohibitively expensive, even if they won. You might run an LRM boat a couple may he's, then switched to a Hunchback for a dozen to make money to use the LRMboat DDC again.

No, most people elected to just put a couple of tons of extra ammo on their LRM boats, and run with the 75% the game gave you for free, only repairing the armor and the structure. Punitive repair costs were not fun, and they didn't make the game any more balanced. Not repairing items made the 'cost' of running DHS non-existent, as with 7.5 HP instead of 10 on any given item made little difference, as either at 7.5 or 10 health, an item could take a single crit from a medium laser or bigger and survive, and was equally destroyed by a double or triple crit. At the end of the day, it's about having fun, and playing a mech that you don't think is fun just so you can afford to play a mech that is fun is bad design.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Kattspya.....

So you found a way to add yourself to your own ignore list? Cool story bro.

[Kattspya]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

@Kattspya.....

So you found a way to add yourself to your own ignore list? Cool story bro.

You might need reading glasses. I said incompetents AND blowhards. My modesty prohibits me from claiming to be both.

[Thirdstar]

Tesunie, on 26 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

One of my Stalker are built with single heatsinks. It's got 6 med lasers, and 4 LRM5s. Sure, I could put in double heatsinks, improve my heart by .04 and go maybe 5kph faster, but at the cost of a lot of c-bills that isn't needed. A little slower doesn't hurt my mech, and the 0.04 extra dissipation isn't a huge deal. I also tested this with a 4 PPC stalker, and it only really improved my engine a little.

Not saying double heatsinks wouldn't be beneficial, but I don't always need it.

Also, if R&R returned, then you might want to run a cheaper build that doesn't have expensive double heatsinks, XL engines, etc. Without R&R, there isn't a reason not to. (Though I will admit to wanting to play a little closer to lore with some of my mechs, another reason to keep single heatsinks.)

Where in heaven's name is all your weight going in that stalker? I'm sorry if I come off rude but that's a terrible build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...889c0255f202db9

I tried to follow your build as closely as possible and still had spare tonnage to upgrade two of the LRM5s to LRM10s.

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Also R&R was bloody stupid. That is all.

Edited by Thirdstar, 26 March 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yes. I am aware that the concept of working toward anything doesn't have the appeal to the modern generation. Whereas I find it fun to actually be challenged and not have the mech faerie grant my every wish instantly. And the best solution to the cheating wasn't to remove RnR. It was to remove the autorepair, or at least nerd it back to the 25% talked about in initial posts. No cheats to exploit.

But yes, Timmy couldn't instantly start with his maxteched MadCat. So sad. Oh wait .... He STILL can't. Again, the instant gratification is fine, in a no meta TDM game. If that proves all this is, then by all means, free clan mecha for everyone.

[Kattspya]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yes. I am aware that the concept of working toward anything doesn't have the appeal to the modern generation. Whereas I find it fun to actually be challenged and not have the mech faerie grant my every wish instantly. And the best solution to the cheating wasn't to remove RnR. It was to remove the autorepair, or at least nerd it back to the 25% talked about in initial posts. No cheats to exploit.

But yes, Timmy couldn't instantly start with his maxteched MadCat. So sad. Oh wait .... He STILL can't. Again, the instant gratification is fine, in a no meta TDM game. If that proves all this is, then by all means, free clan mecha for everyone.

Since the first alpha, currently and for the forseeable future this is a no meta TDM game...

If this was something with the economy and risks of EvE online you'd have a point. Hell, I'd be shouting with you on the barricades.

[Fenix0742]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yes. I am aware that the concept of working toward anything doesn't have the appeal to the modern generation. Whereas I find it fun to actually be challenged and not have the mech faerie grant my every wish instantly. And the best solution to the cheating wasn't to remove RnR. It was to remove the autorepair, or at least nerd it back to the 25% talked about in initial posts. No cheats to exploit.

But yes, Timmy couldn't instantly start with his maxteched MadCat. So sad. Oh wait .... He STILL can't. Again, the instant gratification is fine, in a no meta TDM game. If that proves all this is, then by all means, free clan mecha for everyone.

"Working towards something" would be fine, if the game wasn't a F2P game that is was doing it's best to avoid P2W. I remember reading a thread at the beginning of open beta where someone spend all his founders MC on buying and selling Atlas K's so he could have tons of c-bills. In a game that CW is supposed to be essential, it wouldn't do to have a certain house or merc corps winning because all of their members were premium players in atlases and other houses were free players in hunchbacks.

A better solution would be to go back to the original vision of role warfare. TT balance of costs works in TT because one person is fielding all the mechs. Cost balance doesn't work in a video game where you only get your own mech, and only one person gets a good mech with the rest of the team fielding "cheap mediums."

[Thirdstar]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yes. I am aware that the concept of working toward anything doesn't have the appeal to the modern generation. Whereas I find it fun to actually be challenged and not have the mech faerie grant my every wish instantly. And the best solution to the cheating wasn't to remove RnR. It was to remove the autorepair, or at least nerd it back to the 25% talked about in initial posts. No cheats to exploit.

But yes, Timmy couldn't instantly start with his maxteched MadCat. So sad. Oh wait .... He STILL can't. Again, the instant gratification is fine, in a no meta TDM game. If that proves all this is, then by all means, free clan mecha for everyone.

The reason I keep raining on your threads and posts Bishop is you keep saying stupid, generalizing **** like this.

You have a serious case of 'Git offa my lawn' syndrome. Cut it out, it's why no one takes your seriously.

[Mercules]

Fenix0742, on 26 March 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Cost balance doesn't work in a video game where you only get your own mech, and only one person gets a good mech with the rest of the team fielding "cheap mediums."

Battle Value. Amazing how many balance issues are fixed in the matchmaker with a Battle Value mechanic. Match up BV and you won't have 1 twinked out, 1 good, and 6 "cheap" mechs facing 8 twinked mechs.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Kattspya.....

So because they have been slow building and releasing community warfare, we should pretend it is not coming, and remove anything that is oriented for it? Aaaaand then add it all back in in May (supposedly) when phase 1 of CW (supposedly the heart of the mwo meta) begins?

To me it sounds like those who said the buff to TAG was useless..... Then became the first to complain when their precious ecm was rendered useless on Alpine by that same Useless TAG. they have been slowly but steadily adding pieces building toward the puzzle.

Just because they are slow is no reason to just give up the plan and dumb the game out.

The difference, is that I am looming at the feature roadmap, and the game at a whole, whereas most of the anti arguments are focused only on the game as it is this very second. I expect more bumps i. That road, but am not ready to throw i. tHe towel and have it become a twitch shooter forncasuals. That is what Hawken is for.

[Protection]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yes. I am aware that the concept of working toward anything doesn't have the appeal to the modern generation. Whereas I find it fun to actually be challenged and not have the mech faerie grant my every wish instantly. And the best solution to the cheating wasn't to remove RnR. It was to remove the autorepair, or at least nerd it back to the 25% talked about in initial posts. No cheats to exploit.

But yes, Timmy couldn't instantly start with his maxteched MadCat. So sad. Oh wait .... He STILL can't. Again, the instant gratification is fine, in a no meta TDM game. If that proves all this is, then by all means, free clan mecha for everyone.

I work towards things in my jobs, my crafts, my other hobbies. Gaming used to be one thing where you could buy a game and have all the pieces available to you. Now, to artificially increase playtime and longevity, games now have long arbitrary grinds that prevent you from accessing content until you've put X number of hours in.

MW4, MW3, MW2 were all quite nice in that respect -- if Timmy just got the game and wanted to hop in a Mad Cat, he was free to do. He'd get to be on a level playing field with the other players who also could choose from any of the mechs and equipment.

[MustrumRidcully]

Jakob Knight, on 26 March 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I used it as an example, but I can give you an actual situation if you wish. My AWS-8R has a total of 27 Single Heat Sinks, translating to 27 heat dissipation. From my own configuration attempts, I know the most doubles I can fit on that same configuration would be about 18 doubles (being generous). While that is more efficient in terms of tonnage, the heat dissipation would end up being 25.2, a -reduction- of 1.8 heat dissipation. As I have no weapon slots remaining to fill, this setup means I find single heat sinks to be -better- than doubles in this situation. On my Catapult, by comparison, I need tonnage more, and thus the doubles are more efficient.

The above are hard facts, since you seem to want to nitpick instead of understanding the point I was making. Now, that is solved, and the result is the same. I hope this was not the waste of time you seem to have made it.

Redo the math with the following information:
The first 10 in-engine double heat sinks give you +2 heat capacity and +0.2 dissipation/sec.
Out-of-Engine heat sinks give you +1.4 heat capacity and +0.14 dissipation/sec
Standard sinks always give +1 heat capacity and +0.1 dissipation/sec

After you've redone the math, write PGI an e-mail that their byzantine heat system is confusing and tricks player into believing wrong things about the game.

[Thirdstar]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Redo the math with the following information:
The first 10 in-engine double heat sinks give you +2 heat capacity and +0.2 dissipation/sec.
Out-of-Engine heat sinks give you +1.4 heat capacity and +0.14 dissipation/sec
Standard sinks always give +1 heat capacity and +0.1 dissipation/sec

After you've redone the math, write PGI an e-mail that their byzantine heat system is confusing and tricks player into believing wrong things about the game.

I wish I had the patience you always display Mustrum.

You're not a high school teacher are you?

Edited by Thirdstar, 26 March 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[MuKen]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yes. I am aware that the concept of working toward anything doesn't have the appeal to the modern generation.

This is not only an ad hominem, it's a passive aggressive one. Generations, or wanting to work toward anything, has nothing to do with this discussion.

People want to work towards their skills, and want to test those skills against other people equally. I want to know if I have something the other guy doesn't, it's a maneuver or an ability that I PERSONALLY have, that I gained through my practice and training and beat him with. Not a number or an unlock that the system gave me to beat him with.

Edited by MuKen, 26 March 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Thirdstar

Don't take it the wrong way, but I don't consider you and the KONG regulars as "everyone". Bi seem to get more than enough likes from other regulars to make me doubt the veracity of tour claim.

What makes it more dubious, is your cherry picking one example, taken after a dozen posts and many pages of being belittled and insulted, and try to proclaim it as my sole approach or contribution. When people run their mouths, and say nothing, you are correct that I treat them with little respect. But since in few instances do I start the trash talking, I think you are inaccurate in your assumption.

When people remotely try to be open to actual debate, I am all for it. When people have had their "argument" so thoroughly disproven that all that remains is taunts and insults, I am not above instigating more for my own amusement.