1107 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

And u prove my point.

The people whose argument you support are being"reasonable" even when they revert to insults.
The people who disagree with you, are just being arsehurt, and when they respond back to the insults, then they are just being condescending.

When I can point to multiple conciliatory posts from Mercules, Joseph and Myself. But instead of trying to achieve any common ground, they are twisted and used for further insults. But of course 600 posts of rage and arguments are caused by me calling someone kid or Timmy..... 500 posts in. After being called an I d I o t and a liar.

Yup. Not biased at all.
And no, the post was "we don't feel SHS work, only idiots think they do". To which multiple people responded why they did work, even if they are not ideal. And the flaming ensues.

And you're cherry picking just like you accused me of. It'll take me some time but I can go dig through your post history to find instances where you've jumped head first into threads with insults and vitriol.

Some of the posts here literally go like this.

"There's an issue with how much of an upgrade DHS is over SHS"

"Nuh uh, SHS is just fine, learn to play, heat manage and stop being so entitled"

"What, what's that got to do with anything?"

"Stop trying to take my fun away from me, my builds work fine, you just don't know how to play damn kids!"

[Shumabot]

Seriously, he has been trolling for over 30 pages now. He can't be reasoned with. Don't bother and just ignore him.

[Mercules]

Wait a second... my brain just went... "They want to do what to solve the issue?"

One of the solutions presented was to roll the cost of DHS into the cost of the mech and give all mechs DHS.

Here is the problem with that. Sure you are giving Trial mechs DHS, but you are not changing anything else about them. So instead of a Grind in a Trial to get their first mech then a grind to upgrade to DHS but at least the ability to swap out weapons and maybe make it a bit more heat efficient and give it more ammo... you are going to have a LONGER grind stuck in a Trial Mech to purchase the mech the can customize even slightly. That seems counterproductive.

[Bishop Steiner]

@Andyhill

First flaw in your design is "armorless arms". Those arms can still be used gery effective with torso twisting to absorb shots otherwise going into your side torso and those oh so robust gauss rifles (and or XL depending on preference). I'd much rather have those armored arms than 2 medium lasers any day of the week. Which again makes heat a non issue in my Gaussapult, regardless of heatsink type.

Admittedly.... Some goes to pilot preference. My Gkitty usually is a standoff weapon sniping from the edges (which is why I run the fragile 280XL, allowing me to maintain a decent speed envelope, and attacking from the edges, then moving to a new sniper nest before I can be focused on.... Hopefully). Hence medium lasers are useless for my style of fighting in it, and as such DHS don't really "optimize" anything, as they are actually redundant.

For someone more inclined to use their Gcat as a brawler, 2-4lasers may make more sense. In which case DHS dies, also.

That is the core of most of the arguing, people being unable to comprehend that optimal and viable are two different things, and that even optimal is highly dependant on mech, map, role and other factors. No one build, no matter how smurfylicious, is optimal for every scenario, while a build CAN be viable for any scenario.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 26 March 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Wait a second... my brain just went... "They want to do what to solve the issue?"

One of the solutions presented was to roll the cost of DHS into the cost of the mech and give all mechs DHS.

Here is the problem with that. Sure you are giving Trial mechs DHS, but you are not changing anything else about them. So instead of a Grind in a Trial to get their first mech then a grind to upgrade to DHS but at least the ability to swap out weapons and maybe make it a bit more heat efficient and give it more ammo... you are going to have a LONGER grind stuck in a Trial Mech to purchase the mech the can customize even slightly. That seems counterproductive.

That would also make every mech 1.5 million cbills more expensive and the majority of the games player base wouldn't understand why and someone would probably burn down PGIs office.

[MustrumRidcully]

Battle Value is cool if it could be made to work and all, and you find a good solution to mixing it with Elo.

But one thing. IF you can calculate Battle VAlues for gear, you also have all the tools needed to balance the gear itself.

Whether you do this is up to you, but I just point out - if Cryptic, pardon, PGI was able to pull off a decent battle value system, they could also balance the game items itself. I am not convinced that they manage to the latter, so I don't stake my hopes on a battle value system.

[Thirdstar]

MustrumRidcully, on 26 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Battle Value is cool if it could be made to work and all, and you find a good solution to mixing it with Elo.

But one thing. IF you can calculate Battle VAlues for gear, you also have all the tools needed to balance the gear itself.

Whether you do this is up to you, but I just point out - if Cryptic, pardon, PGI was able to pull off a decent battle value system, they could also balance the game items itself. I am not convinced that they manage to the latter, so I don't stake my hopes on a battle value system.

Hehe, I see what you did there.

[Bishop Steiner]

And thank you to Shumabot for further making my point, by being a snide little test even when people are in agreement . And please, do ignore me, your arguments are tedious and no more valid now then this morning.

Btw, since I am typing on a cellphone, I'll use whatever shorthand is convenient. If it bothers us, there is a feature under edit your profile, called ignore list. Use it. But of course Thirdstar, I am the aggressor attacking a poor defenseless little one just trying to get along, correct? Because that is what you have claimed. Regardless,think what you will. Yet if I was simply trying to belittle people, why would I have even spent this much time in "non trolling" posts to you? I think you mistake me for Vass, who is primarily on here to instigate for amusement.

[Shumabot]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

And thank you to Shumabot for further making my point, by being a snide little test even when people are in agreement . And please, do ignore me, your arguments are tedious and no more valid now then this morning.

Btw, since I am typing on a cellphone, I'll use whatever shorthand is convenient. If it bothers us, there is a feature under edit your profile, called ignore list. Use it. But of course Thirdstar, I am the aggressor attacking a poor defenseless little one just trying to get along, correct? Because that is what you have claimed. Regardless,think what you will. Yet if I was simply trying to belittle people, why would I have even spent this much time in "non trolling" posts to you? I think you mistake me for Vass, who is primarily on here to instigate for amusement.

Skype doesn't make your desktop a phone.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thirdstar, on 26 March 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

And then you pile on your usual 'entitled kids, new generation' silliness on top of that.

I think I've had some good discussios with Bishop, but I will say this:

Whenever I hear anyone, and that includes him, here about "ENtitled Kids", "New Generation", "ADD Generation" and stuff like that, I just roll my eyes.

It's just as it was always be - the young generation sucks. That's what every generation has said so far. "We had it much worse and worked much harder, and the new generation is lazy and only is out for itself"

Yet weirdly enough, despite getting worse and worse by generation, we changed from a mostly agrarian culture relying on hard physical work with horses for transporation and muscle as power source that to mostly service oriented culture using internal combusion engines or jet engines as transportation and nuclear fission as energy source.
I guess it just proves that we're just a really lazy bunch, right?

[XphR]

Thirdstar, on 26 March 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

You have a serious case of 'Git offa my lawn' syndrome. Cut it out, it's why no one takes your seriously.

If its his lawn, 'git offa et'? At least he is cordial enough to call out as he chambers the bird-shot. What I will never understand is why people believe they have a right to trespass?

[Thirdstar]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

I think you mistake me for Vass, who is primarily on here to instigate for amusement.

I'm clearly not getting through to you, so i'll end this with a little anecdote.

I've been lurking these forums since Closed Beta, at the start of which I thought both you AND Vass were obnoxious, trollish and stubborn, set in your narrow points of view. I have since come to see that Vass is indeed a troll but he's far more constructive and beneficial to this game than you've ever even attempted to be.

So ultimately my opinion of Vass improved, my opinion of you remained the same. Obviously you don't care about that, I just thought i'd share.

You are resistant to change, you are hostile to disagreement, you pull the old man card too often, you are insular and unwelcoming of those different to you.

That is all.

Edit: Why am I up so bloody late?

Edited by Thirdstar, 26 March 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[MuKen]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

and look at the whole of a conversation, one would see I am all for what tlyou say. As ONE ASPECT/FEATURE of the game.

And what exactly does that mean, in the context of this thread?

You want two sets of stats, one where SHS and DHS are balanced for one game mode, and one where DHS are better in another mode so you have something to work towards when playing that game mode?

Sorry, but that would be annoying and unfun.

[Bishop Steiner]

I would say that the obesity levels of America currently would point toward a much greater degree of laziness than in past generations, Mustrum. And while many new ideas are coming and going, it is pretty undeniable that we are becoming a culture of instant gratification. People can mock it as they want,nor pooplo it, but when our grandparents had a term paper in school, they had to work like hell to research it. Now, people just google it (or just as likely post whatevernonsense some friend on Facebook said is true). Does that make going to a library and using the microfiche and Dewey decimal catalog better than having the world at our fingertips? certainly not. But it does tend to lead to a worldview where instant and easy answers are expected, and taken for granted.

Hence when some derp acts like a typical teenager who thinks he is an internet badazz, some of us refer to them thusly. Why? Because common sense doesn't work, and wasting time cussing em back insult to insult is a pointless affair (and generally lacking in imagination), but for whatever reason, calling em kid, entitled, etc, seems to get under their akin like nobodies business. Petty? Guilty, but not entirely without merit.

and as you said, why is it that we can strongly disagree, yet not descend into such nonsense? Because generally speaking, I believe we both try to be respectful, at least where it's given. The difference is you manage to stay respectful usually, even when others aren't. I'm too mean spirited to always do that, it would seem, lol.

Though what the hell any of this has to do with heatsinks is beyond me. Get off my damn lawn! I'll run SHS if I damn well feel like it!
Blah blah blah.

[Thirdstar]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Hence when some derp acts like a typical teenager who thinks he is an internet badazz, some of us refer to them thusly.

And you know this how?

I can't believe you read what Mustrum wrote and STILL continued the stupid 'younger generation' ******** without skipping a beat.

There's no hope for you. And I say that with no rancor.

[AndyHill]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

@Andyhill

First flaw in your design is "armorless arms". Those arms can still be used gery effective with torso twisting to absorb shots otherwise going into your side torso and those oh so robust gauss rifles (and or XL depending on preference). I'd much rather have those armored arms than 2 medium lasers any day of the week. Which again makes heat a non issue in my Gaussapult, regardless of heatsink type.

Admittedly.... Some goes to pilot preference. My Gkitty usually is a standoff weapon sniping from the edges (which is why I run the fragile 280XL, allowing me to maintain a decent speed envelope, and attacking from the edges, then moving to a new sniper nest before I can be focused on.... Hopefully). Hence medium lasers are useless for my style of fighting in it, and as such DHS don't really "optimize" anything, as they are actually redundant.

For someone more inclined to use their Gcat as a brawler, 2-4lasers may make more sense. In which case DHS dies, also.

That is the core of most of the arguing, people being unable to comprehend that optimal and viable are two different things, and that even optimal is highly dependant on mech, map, role and other factors. No one build, no matter how smurfylicious, is optimal for every scenario, while a build CAN be viable for any scenario.

I've run out of ammo on a couple of occasions, although it seems that I only fire about half of the full load in an average match and in those situations the lasers are quite handy. Of course it's a sniper build by nature and likes to hang out a bit further away, but one of the reasons for GaussCats being as scary as they are is the fact that they also make a very capable brawler. Especially if you're not alone in the fight and the enemy can't concentrate on you.

Anyway, being able to do a bit more DPM in a brawl can be useful, since you can't always pick your fights. The lasers are also very valuable against lagshielding lights that really like to harrass snipers. For me the tradeoff is more about lasers vs gauss ammo, since I don't really see much value in the arm armor, it doesn't even cover much of your huge side profile.

I guess I forgot the point as well as the topic of the thread. So,
1) You can build a viable gauss cat without any need for DHS
2) Some viable gauss cat builds make good use of DHS
3) At the very least DHS have no drawbacks besides the price

It would be interesting to make polls with two 'mech designs in general and see what the community thinks of them. The difference between our builds is that you probably carry more ammo and gets a little more cover from the ears, but mine has a pretty strong advantage in a brawl assuming equal skill.

Edited by AndyHill, 26 March 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[XphR]

Shumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Skype doesn't make your desktop a phone.

Does it not?

[Bishop Steiner]

@MuKen

Why would there be separate stats? Because just like any game that is hot purely TDM, there are separate scores. This game, supposedly, will be more, community and role warfare set around a semi persistent gake universe. So it's obviously not meant flto just be a spawn and shoot. But like many games who want more players, than run n gun gives a great casual connection to try the game. Generally speaking, everything is wide open and instantly available in those scenarios, or thru powerups. Obviously that instant access would be imbalancing to a persistent aspect game, where grind and merits are part of the package. Hence while related, they are separate.

If those proposed features never do evolve, as Mustrum and others fear, then all bets are indeed off, everyone will have maxtech TDM and PGI will likely find themselves giving a lit of refunds or getting a huge lawsuit for misrepresentation, as those who bought founders or hero mechs will have been enticed to spend under false pretenses.

[Thirdstar]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

If those proposed features never do evolve, as Mustrum and others fear, then all bets are indeed off, everyone will have maxtech TDM and PGI will likely find themselves giving a lit of refunds or getting a huge lawsuit for misrepresentation, as those who bought founders or hero mechs will have been enticed to spend under false pretenses.

Probably have an iron clad Terms of Service. I don't think anyone's getting refunds now. Last person I talked to about it said support told him he was SOL.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

I would say that the obesity levels of America currently would point toward a much greater degree of laziness than in past generations, Mustrum.

How do you determine this? WHat are you metrics? What papers can you cite, what statistical analysises?

I don't believe any of it.

I might be more willing to believe that some of the older generation gotten lazy and said "Oh, I can't handle this kid, give me something to treat its Attention Deficit Syndrome" where the kid was really just a kid behaving like a kid. But that would be just as questionable.

Quote

People can mock it as they want,nor pooplo it, but when our grandparents had a term paper in school, they had to work like hell to research it. Now, people just google it (or just as likely post whatevernonsense some friend on Facebook said is true).

Exactly, progress is bad, it makes us lazy, right?

Instead or really seeing this as an opportunity - instead of wasting time reseraching stuff in dusty tomes and libraries, we can google it, have the information at hand, and can get to the real work - analyzing the information depth, developing new theories explaining certain observations.

If I was a high school teacher, I could probably nowadays ask completely different things from kids then I could do it 20 years ago, because now kids don't have to skim 4 books to find the answers to a question, they can google it in 12 seconds and can now answer a lot more questions, and more importantly, see a much bigger picture and connect the dots between much more points then ever before.

But holy hell, does this have nothing to do with the topic.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 26 March 2013 - 01:54 PM.