1107 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

Seriously, the people getting overly defensive about their unoptimized builds are constantly derailing this thread.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Dont.I still use them on my Comm-2D.I cannot squeeze ES,FF and DHS alltogether .

[Errant Variable]

skipping the tl;dr:
DHS are better because they take advantage of large engine sizes (crits as well as tonnage). Large engine sizes are desirable both for speed and for torso movement which lets you bring weapons on target faster and therefore kill better. DHS are also written from the word go to be better in every way unless you are severely crit or CBill limited (unlikely without R&R costs). Therefore QQ DHS are better.
Still tl;dr sorry.

[AndyHill]

Tesunie, on 26 March 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

The Streakmando was the only mech variant that didn't need DHS? Where it was actually detrimental?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e725b1e7135f2db
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3a6ae2247f97b90
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b84c771a5b0473f
Just to quick up a few. How would DHS improve these builds?

I wouldn't want to drive any of those builds, Jäger I guess is mostly ok. GaussCat has way too little damage potential, I would add XL and a few ML, which would also make doubles a good upgrade. Yesterday I actually took a look at the stats and it seems that of the approximately 27000 dmg done by my Gausscat 5000 - 6000 was from the ML.

[Avatara]

I am against removing single heat sinks,if you do I will loose half my ammo for my ballistic relying mechs.

[AndyHill]

Chances are you won't. But I don't really disagree about not removing singles. Show us your builds in smurfy and we can take a look at them, might be room for improvement.

[Joseph Mallan]

Atheus, on 26 March 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

As an interesting side-issue - if "lore" is your fetish, and realism, and economies, etc. — what is wrong with whoever the merchants are who are selling "stock" mechs in this game? The entire population of mech pilots are running DHS because it's essential to be competitive (minus newbies and a few key ignorants who opted for endo-steel on their assault mech instead of DHS). Being that let's say... 95% of players are running DHS, why the heck are they even selling mechs that have SHS? Wouldn't their product be much more marketable if they were built with the actual specifics of MWO's weapons and heat system in mind?

Basically, if the idea of a working economy with various market pressures and scarcity is your argument for keeping SHS, you can stop arguing. The supply of DHS is infinite, and the price is fixed. The market does not react to supply or demand in any way, and the mechs available for sale are not even from the MWO universe in the first place. If they were, they would have much better efficiency from the start, whether or not they had DHS. The Mechs for sale come from a universe where weapons only fire once per 10 seconds, and are designed around that fact. There you go. Lore already ruined - time to make a new lore.

Those who are arguing Lore are thinking in House terms. Those of us playing Mercs and Lone Wolves are not bound by interstellar government budgets. Me spending 1.5 Mil to upgrade my ride is... expensive, but multiply that by how many Mechs a House buys! The creators of the TT game took that into account and made decisions based on government practice. The lowest bid gets the contract.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but on TT if you were playing a House unit you used the equipment you were given. If you were a Merc you modified out of salvage. Here we are given money AS salvage and we buy what we want if we can afford it. Not a proper way to run a on going campaign if we are mostly Mercs.

I am not here to be "competitive" I wanna play the story that we were promised. I know it is not here yet so I will be patient, But if I have to use one of "these" to play competitive Then you keep competitive and let me battle the Clans.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 March 2013 - 04:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thontor, on 27 March 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Exactly. If I buy a mech, I want to improve it. One of the ways to improve it is to get DHS. If you take Singles away, you take away an aspect of progression.

Why don't we just get rid of mech efficiencies too? And build them into a mech by default. Its basically the same thing... They don't offer choices, and any mech without them is inferior.


No, we shouldn't do that either. Because people like the feeling of progression.

And making the ride "their" Mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

I think my favorite part of all this is the "show us your build in smurfys and we'll show you how to make it better" schtick.
Since you aren't me, and don't have my piloting quirks, idiosyncrasies or traits and preferences, just how do you actually propose to make a mech better for ME (or any non-newbie)?  more important, for a lot of people, isn't even if a mech is 100% "optimal" (which is a myth any damn ways), is folks play mechwarrior cuz they like what works for THEM, not some cookie cutter build.  Some cataphract pilots prefer to use an Ilya with .3UAC/5.  I prefer a 4X with 4 AC/5.  Which is better, or "optimal"?  Whichever one the individual piloting consistently does better in.
The arrogance, is pretty laughable.  And while I haven't had a chance to look at the leader board for the last tournament, I sure don't remember seeing any of you meets on top of the last few.  until I do, excuse me if I don't take your word as gospel.Instead of showing off a smurfy, why not show us yourbleet builds on caustic, and tourmaline, and see what isnreall optimal? Kinda hollow coming from me, admittedly, when I won't even have access to my rig for another 2 weeks, but the point is, too much talk of paper perfection, seldom seems to translate as well in actual game use, when the human input and tactics part come to bear.easy to talk smack on a forum though, ain't it?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 March 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[FupDup]

Tesunie, on 26 March 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

And, just because it increases the cooling rate to insanity doesn't mean it's needed. Thus, it's not needed on those mech designs and not really worth the waste of C-bills just to upgrade them to DHS because "they are more efficient". If you don't need them, then why bother?

And 1,500,000 is not a small amount when you are saving up for a 6-8,000,000 c-bill mech. That's a huge chunk of the cost you are dumping into a mech that doesn't need it. In some cases, that's a quarter of what you might need for a new mech. (Unless my sleep deprived brain is messing up the numbers and adding in too many 0s on a number...)

I'll use a famous phrase to describe why: "It's better to have and not need than to need and not have." The advantage might be negligible, but it is still an advantage that will never, ever hurt you (unless you're really short on spacebucks). It's ~200% heat efficiency that you didn't have before. It's like picking up somebody's lost dollar bill from the ground.

Thontor, on 27 March 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Exactly. If I buy a mech, I want to improve it. One of the ways to improve it is to get DHS. If you take Singles away, you take away an aspect of progression.

Why don't we just get rid of mech efficiencies too? And build them into a mech by default. Its basically the same thing... They don't offer choices, and any mech without them is inferior.


No, we shouldn't do that either. Because people like the feeling of progression.

I'm going to use a hyperbole to show what Protection and the others are trying to get at.

Under your logic, would it be beneficial to the feeling of progression in the game to add Gold Medium Lasers that do 7 damage and 2 heat but cost 400,000 C-Bills each?

Let's take it a step further and add Bronze-tier weapons for all trial mechs, like a Bronze LRM10 with 3 damage, 6 heat, and weighs 6 tons.

Edited by FupDup, 27 March 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

I think my favorite part of all this is the "show us your build in smurfys and we'll show you how to make it better" schtick.
Since you aren't me, and don't have my piloting quirks, idiosyncrasies or traits and preferences, just how do you actually propose to make a mech better for ME (or any non-newbie)? more important, for a lot of people, isn't even if a mech is 100% "optimal" (which is a myth any damn ways), is folks play mechwarrior cuz they like what works for THEM, not some cookie cutter build. Some cataphract pilots prefer to use an Ilya with .3UAC/5. I prefer a 4X with 4 AC/5. Which is better, or "optimal"? Whichever one the individual piloting consistently does better in.
The arrogance, is pretty laughable. And while I haven't had a chance to look at the leader board for the last tournament, I sure don't remember seeing any of you meets on top of the last few. until I do, excuse me if I don't take your word as gospel.Instead of showing off a smurfy, why not show us yourbleet builds on caustic, and tourmaline, and see what isnreall optimal? Kinda hollow coming from me, admittedly, when I won't even have access to my rig for another 2 weeks, but the point is, too much talk of paper perfection, seldom seems to translate as well in actual game use, when the human input and tactics part come to bear.easy to talk smack on a forum though, ain't it?

[Kdogg788]

FupDup, on 27 March 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

I'm going to use a hyperbole to show what Protection and the others are trying to get at.

Under your logic, would it be beneficial to the feeling of progression in the game to add Gold Medium Lasers that do 7 damage and 2 heat but cost 400,000 C-Bills each?

Let's take it a step further and add Bronze-tier weapons for all trial mechs, like a Bronze LRM10 with 3 damage, 6 heat, and weighs 8 tons.

At least there is logic is what he's saying, jeez... And last time I checked trial mechs had the same weapon characteristics on them as with any you can buy in the lab. By your logic, all weapons should be free because perish the thought we should actually have to work for them. Why else would they give the highest prices to high damage weapons like Gauss and ERPPCs, that if a player wants to equip them, they need to save for and buy them?

Sure I try to optimize my builds, but that's because I have a serious interest in the game. I research every possible build for the variant on various sites and ask members on my unit homepage. Other people aren't as serious as you and aren't going to min/max/math logic every mech they make and instead fool around in the lab for something that looks cool and might be fun.

-k

[Bishop Steiner]

Hey FupDup,

Those "gold" mediums are coming. Won't have the 2 heat, more like 5ish, but since they'll in all other ways mimickba large laser, for one ton, I think the clan er mediums fit your gold standard.

The point your crowd cannot seem to grasp is removing choice, period, is not good. Time and again people have shown builds which aren't smurfy approved, but that they consistently carry a high KDr in. Why you guys get so bent over what Joe, myself, Thontor and the like choose to drive is laughable. Instead of removing singles, and tryinbto micromanage what everyone is allowed to drive, why not take all that uber co.petitive building ton8 man whereby can micromanage what your team has.

Until then, I got no issue with you driving what you like, but if my Gcat doesn't carry medium laser orndhs, until one of you pros can consistently beat me while driving it, I'm going to drive what I damn well please. And this is where Thirdstar says I'm supposed to tell you kids to get offs my damn lawn..... Though id rather quote Scooby DOO something.

Seriously, this whole trying to micromanage what everyone is or isn't allowed to PUG in is just tedious.

[Joseph Mallan]

My D-DC

[Atheus]

Kdogg788, on 27 March 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Other people aren't as serious as you and aren't going to min/max/math logic every mech they make and instead fool around in the lab for something that looks cool and might be fun.

-k

That's part of the problem with having vastly inferior equipment in the game. People who don't know any better will use it, and as a result the distance between terrible players and great players expands drastically.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

My D-DC

Is this serious? I'm not trying to be snarky, but aside from me thinking this is a silly way to build a D-DC it seems like a bit of a non-sequitur. Why are you showing us this?

Edited by Atheus, 27 March 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Atheus, on 27 March 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

That's part of the problem with having vastly inferior equipment in the game. People who don't know any better will use it, and as a result the distance between terrible players and great players expands drastically.


Is this serious? I'm not trying to be snarky, but aside from me thinking this is a silly way to build a D-DC it seems like a bit of a non-sequitur. Why are you showing us this?

You can't buff equipment just to save people from themselves. So the OP is irritated that his PUG teammates overheat and die in the match and aren't much help to him. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Chalk it up to factors outside your control and take in the added challenge of dispatching more of the enemy.

-k

[Bishop Steiner]

@Altheus,

Using that premise then, what of Clan Tech? Its coming. So are we going to be micromanaged and told we all have to run madcats if we want to play? The superiority gap will be huge.

Using the logic with that, tbh, why even bother making inner sphere designs in tue first place? Its what happened in MW4. Be rryone power glommed into basically nothing but clan tech. Seems rather r boring to me. Choice is good, and one size doesn't fit all. Some of that inferior tech is part of the IP, and part of what gives itnits flavor.

[Joseph Mallan]

Atheus, on 27 March 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

That's part of the problem with having vastly inferior equipment in the game. People who don't know any better will use it, and as a result the distance between terrible players and great players expands drastically.


Is this serious? I'm not trying to be snarky, but aside from me thinking this is a silly way to build a D-DC it seems like a bit of a non-sequitur. Why are you showing us this?

Got me into the top 100 in the Hero Tourney in less than a day & top 3 on the match score board most matchs. Is that serious enough?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 March 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[Atheus]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Got me into the top 100 in the Hero Tourney in less than a day & top 3 on the match score board most matchs. Is that serious enough?

I have no idea why I'm doing this... it's like a scab I can't help but peel off. You may be a superb pilot — I have no idea, I've never played witih or against you that I noticed, but that's a terrible mech loadout. Anyway, I fixed it for you. Enjoy killing more and dying less.

Still... why are you showing us this? What does it have to do with the discussion so far?

Edited by Atheus, 27 March 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Atheus, on 27 March 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

I have no idea why I'm doing this... it's like a scab I can't help but peel off. You may be a superb pilot — I have no idea, I've never played witih or against you that I noticed, but that's a terrible mech loadout. Anyway, I fixed it for you. Enjoy killing more and dying less.

Slower, less heat efficient...

Thanks, but no. To slow. You fixed it for you, not for me.

I died more at that speed than I do with my build.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 March 2013 - 06:44 AM.