1107 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Slower, less heat efficient...

Thanks, but no. To slow. You fixed it for you, not for me.

I died more at that speed than I do with my build.

Might want to remove that lone LRM ammo.

[ItsAPotato]

Why is this thread still a thing?

[Joseph Mallan]

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Might want to remove that lone LRM ammo.

Yes I might

[Thirdstar]

ItsAPotato, on 27 March 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Why is this thread still a thing?

[Kdogg788]

Reposting this because this should be the main response to the thread, not a battle over everyone's build preferences...

Atheus said "That's part of the problem with having vastly inferior equipment in the game. People who don't know any better will use it, and as a result the distance between terrible players and great players expands drastically."

I replied:

You can't buff equipment just to save people from themselves. So the OP is irritated that his PUG teammates overheat and die in the match and aren't much help to him. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Chalk it up to factors outside your control and take in the added challenge of dispatching more of the enemy.

End of story, SHS, DHS here to stay. You'd be best served to hold on for clan tech and wait to make any global balance remarks until then.

-k

Edited by Kdogg788, 27 March 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[Geocide]

I think people need to learn how to heat manage. Yes, omni tech is going to make people scream for balance.

Hahaha, clan tech, balance....hahaha.

Edited by Geocide, 27 March 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Atheus, on 27 March 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

I have no idea why I'm doing this... it's like a scab I can't help but peel off. You may be a superb pilot — I have no idea, I've never played witih or against you that I noticed, but that's a terrible mech loadout. Anyway, I fixed it for you. Enjoy killing more and dying less.

Still... why are you showing us this? What does it have to do with the discussion so far?

Thats the nice thing about Atlai, so many ways to put one together and still be viable. I recently switched back to a Double UAC5 build from my AC/20 one. Still like the AC/20 one, just harder to get in close on the new larger maps.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Kdogg788, on 27 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Reposting this because this should be the main response to the thread, not a battle over everyone's build preferences...

Atheus said "That's part of the problem with having vastly inferior equipment in the game. People who don't know any better will use it, and as a result the distance between terrible players and great players expands drastically."

I replied:

You can't buff equipment just to save people from themselves. So the OP is irritated that his PUG teammates overheat and die in the match and aren't much help to him. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Chalk it up to factors outside your control and take in the added challenge of dispatching more of the enemy.

End of story, SHS, DHS here to stay. You'd be best served to hold on for clan tech and wait to make any global balance remarks until then.

-k

There really isn't any "inferior" equipment, only equipment that doesn't match the needs of a particular build. The biggest issue isn't the equipment itself, but getting players to learn how to put their mechs together.

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

My D-DC

good god thats an awful ddc build Joe, You must get murdered an awful lot running that thing. Guass rifle with an Xl engine?

[Thirdstar]

Sifright, on 27 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

good god thats an awful ddc build Joe, You must get murdered an awful lot running that thing. Guass rifle with an Xl engine?

He's got a point Joe, XL + Guass is turns your Atlas into a Hunchie in terms of survivability.

I've killed plenty with half my Atlas missing, you really can't do that with your build.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

The point your crowd cannot seem to grasp is removing choice, period, is not good.

The funny part of your sentence above is that I've said twice in this thread that I don't want SHS removed, just buffed. Here are my exact words:

FupDup, on 23 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

Alternative option: change the way DHS and SHS work.

1. Make DHS actually 2.0 in efficiency when outside of the engine, but make them no longer increase your heat capacity (or only increase it by 1, same as current SHS).
2. Make SHS increase your heat capacity by 2-3 (and still provide only 1.0 dissipation).


SHAZAM! Now there's a tactical decision when it comes to picking your heat sink types. You can pick DHS for really fast dissipation (spamming a small number of weapons constantly), or you can go SHS for a really high heat cap (good for alpha-striking).

FupDup, on 26 March 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

My own stance (and the stance of some others) is to not buff SHS's dissipation because that seems like it invades into DHS territory a little bit.

Instead, a different buff to make SHS strategically useful in certain circumstances would be to make the following changes:
Double Heat Sinks
1. Make external DHS have 2.0 dissipation
2. Make it so they only raise the heat capacity by 1 at most (or even just 0) [current value is 2]

Standard Heat Sinks
1. Keep their slow dissipation of 1.0
2. Make it so they increase the mech's heat capacity by 2 or 3 (probably best at 3) [current value is 1]


In short, DHS would be advantageous for builds that need to fire very often/constantly, while SHS would be good for getting off a few alphas and then hiding while you wait for your heat to slowly dissipate. That would make choosing your heat sink type into a much deeper tactical decision and open up some new tactics/builds.

Kdogg788, on 27 March 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

At least there is logic is what he's saying, jeez... And last time I checked trial mechs had the same weapon characteristics on them as with any you can buy in the lab. By your logic, all weapons should be free because perish the thought we should actually have to work for them. Why else would they give the highest prices to high damage weapons like Gauss and ERPPCs, that if a player wants to equip them, they need to save for and buy them?

Sure I try to optimize my builds, but that's because I have a serious interest in the game. I research every possible build for the variant on various sites and ask members on my unit homepage. Other people aren't as serious as you and aren't going to min/max/math logic every mech they make and instead fool around in the lab for something that looks cool and might be fun.

-k

My hyperbole used literally the exact same logic as he did. His logic was that he sees DHS as a "milestone" in progression and that's why it's okay for them to be a straight upgrade that just costs a little bit more. My hyperbole was that a Gold Medium Laser would offer a similar form of "progression" because it's also a straight-upgrade and costs more. All you have to do to make my Gold ML proposal into Thontor's justification of DHS is switch the words Medium and Laser with Heat and Sinks.

TL;DR: DHS are basically Gold SHS.

Edited by FupDup, 27 March 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Sifright]

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

He's got a point Joe, XL + Guass is turns your Atlas into a Hunchie in terms of survivability.

I've killed plenty with half my Atlas missing, you really can't do that with your build.

I'm convinced that build isn't right.
I just looked at again properly it has 0 front CT armour listed... No way is that right. I refuse to believe Joe walks his atlas around with absolutely no armour in the ct... :|

[Kdogg788]

FupDup, on 27 March 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

The funny part of your sentence above is that I've said twice in this thread that I don't want SHS removed, just buffed. Here are my exact words:








My hyperbole used literally the exact same logic as he did. His logic was that he sees DHS as a "milestone" in progression and that's why it's okay for them to be a straight upgrade that just costs a little bit more. My hyperbole was that a Gold Medium Laser would offer a similar form of "progression" because it's also a straight-upgrade and costs more. All you have to do to make my Gold ML proposal into Thontor's justification of DHS is switch the words Medium and Laser with Heat and Sinks.

TL;DR: DHS are basically Gold SHS.

Technically that's still not correct for "Gold SHS" would be an MC only item. Having more expensive better equipment for Cbills is logical. Having it MC only is asinine, a la World of Tanks and similar games.

-k

[FupDup]

Kdogg788, on 27 March 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Technically that's still not correct for "Gold SHS" would be an MC only item. Having more expensive better equipment for Cbills is logical. Having it MC only is asinine, a la World of Tanks and similar games.

-k

I wasn't proposing them to be MC only (I even gave a C-Bill price for the Gold ML), but I guess that's my bad for using the term "Gold" when WoT is already famous for such items. I was just looking for a cool name for upgraded items...maybe we can call them Clan weapons instead.

Edited by FupDup, 27 March 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[Anton Shiningstar]

Sifright, on 27 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

good god thats an awful ddc build Joe, You must get murdered an awful lot running that thing. Guass rifle with an Xl engine?

Thirdstar, on 27 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

He's got a point Joe, XL + Guass is turns your Atlas into a Hunchie in terms of survivability.

I've killed plenty with half my Atlas missing, you really can't do that with your build.

You would think so, but my K/D is the highest in that Mech. See what works for one does not work for all. I have used a 300 and I get better results as I have it built.

[Sifright]

Also joes D-DC build has a tonne of LRM ammo and no lrm launcher...

Anton Shiningstar, on 27 March 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

You would think so, but my K/D is the highest in that Mech. See what works for one does not work for all. I have used a 300 and I get better results as I have it built.

Then you are playing against bads. Every time I see an enemy atlas with a guass rifle I make taking it out priority doubly so if that atlas happens to be moving faster than is normal for an atlas... as soon as I crack the front armour open the guass rifle blows up exceptionally fast taking the entire side torso off..

it's just a bad idea to run XL with a Guass..

[Calamus]

I have a few smaller mechs that double heatsinks are useless for. Many Spider, Commando, and Deaths Knell builds are better with singles. I suspect the Flea will be as well.

[FupDup]

Thontor, on 27 March 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

The difference there is, single heat sinks being in the game, and Doubles being a straight upgrade, is canon.

There is no such "Gold Medium Laser" or "Bronze LRM10" in Battletech.

Then use Clan weapons.

[Kdogg788]

FupDup, on 27 March 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I wasn't proposing them to be MC only (I even gave a C-Bill price for the Gold ML), but I guess that's my bad for using the term "Gold" when WoT is already famous for such items. I was just looking for a cool name for upgraded items...maybe we can call them Clan weapons instead.

Point is, what is the purpose of buffing SHS to bring them up near DHS? At that point, it wouldn't be worth running DHS anymore. With the current system, it's reasonable to upgrade a few mechs to DHS. Doing so for 20 (not accounting for a couple that came with them of course) like my mech hanger is a sizeable investment. If people still insist on using SHS, fine for them, rock out with your SHSs out.

We won't need to call them clan tech. When clan sinks are released, we will have essentially double-double heat sinks. I guess the theory is:
A: New players won't use trials forever, and trials will eventually run DHS.
B: The cadet bonus will allow for a reasonable mech purchase with DHS.
C: If players still insist on running SHS, then let them. You can't enforce builds or sink decisions on anyone. Some players who are Non-premium might not want to invest in them for many mechs. Even many Founders whose time has run out won't put DHS on every new mech immediately. As stated before, you can't save people from themselves. If they overheat continuously in SHS builds, they likely will with DHS. You can't polish a ****, and you can't cover for suck by giving players better heat sinks from day 1.
D: The idea that the mech lab should be made more complex by buffing SHS so competitive players will have to decide if they need SHS on some builds makes no sense. Singles are singles, doubles are doubles. Why would you essentially make them nearly the same?
E: The introduction of clan technology and clan sinks will make this entire conversation obsolete.

-k

Edited by Kdogg788, 27 March 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Sifright]

Thontor, on 27 March 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

I bet Only Clanners will be able to use Clan weapons, and only on Clan mechs.

I highly doubt that there will be mixtech

betcha a dollar there will be mixtech mifter.