1107 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Please, do share one of these builds...

Thunder Hawk!

[Thirdstar]

Terror Teddy, on 23 March 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

BUT - on larger mechs with few energy weapons that takes up few tonnage and space it's usually better to cram in many single heatsinks the way it's done now.

So post one.

Why is this so hard? If you think there's a build that benefits more from SHS than it does from DHS, then post it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thirdstar, on 23 March 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

So post one.

Why is this so hard? If you think there's a build that benefits more from SHS than it does from DHS, then post it.

Oh any Mech would benefit from Dubbs Unless it is a Mech with a small engine and needs to place those 3 crit sinks. Say an Urban Mech! The Flea is pretty cool running with singles, The Locust has no need for Dubbs? Do the Mechs have to specific to MWO or the BattleTech Universe?

[AndyHill]

The DHS are a nice upgrade in TT/canon as well, but what makes SHS just stupid in MWO is the incredible heat produced by the weapons. In the TT besides external issues such as availability and refitting possibilities you would have more situations where you don't really need DHS or where they don't add that much to your design (besides cost), but since heat means almost everything in MWO builds, the SHS vs DHS issue becomes a central design feature. And a few specific cases excluded, you start a build by picking doubles and trying to jam as many of them in the 'mech as possible.

[Thirdstar]

Khanahar, on 23 March 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

A lot of absolutists in here. Anyone actually addressed my build other than the guy who issued a retraction? Kinda curious if there's a better way to build my 'mech, if all SHS builds are indeed "less efficient"

Drop a ton of SSRM ammo, remove FF, add DHS.

Double your previous DPS. Less longevity. You're in a metal babby, you're not going to live all that long anyway.

[Anony Mouse]

How about because diversity? Or pay your dues son! As in start from the bottom and earn it.

Asking why all units don't just come with DHS is like asking why Captain Kirk didn't spend more time on the holodeck. (god that was nerdy, sorry) or why the spartans didn't just use Uzis to pown persians at Thermopylae, I mean the technology is obviously better right?

Right now the game is so arcadey its just arena matches I know, but there is an as of yet unseen mythos at work here, a very well developed body of fiction that creates the backdrop. Hopefully it becomes apperant eventually, but the point is DHS are actually rather new technology. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of the mechs in use are not new, they'd have been built decades, if not centuries ago during a period where these technologies either didn't exist or had been lost, in fact most of the best equipment in game is extremely new and fairly limited in availability, further weighting the arcadey arena description of MWO right now. Hopefully community warfare will sort this out.

Edited for smash hand typing.

Edited by Anony Mouse, 23 March 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 March 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

Oh any Mech would benefit from Dubbs Unless it is a Mech with a small engine and needs to place those 3 crit sinks. Say an Urban Mech! The Flea is pretty cool running with singles, The Locust has no need for Dubbs? Do the Mechs have to specific to MWO or the BattleTech Universe?

MWO Joe. That's what we're talking about. DHS are a straight upgrade in a vast majority of the cases. That's why the OP suggests a drastic solution of removing SHS entirely. I'd rather there be more heat balancing of course.

Anony Mouse, on 23 March 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

How about because diversity? Or pay your dues son!

Asking why all units don't just come with DHS is like asking why Captain Kirk didn't spend more time on the holodeck. (god that was nerdy, sorry) or why the spartans didn't just use Uzis to pown persians at Thermopylae, I mean the technology is obviously better right?

What? That's not what anyone's saying at all. Did you read the thread? You sound confused.

[Scratx]

Fenix0742, on 22 March 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Hopefully they transition to community designed trial mechs for all trial mechs at some point, as I don't think anyone is pretending that trial mechs are viable like they were months ago.

Well... have to agree. Trial mechs were viable, but without RnR holding people back from running all shine and bling, it's almost like we're in clan mechs beating up on inner sphere mechs 1 on 1...

[qki]

ANH-2A(not possible); WSP-3M (not possible); BZK-F3/G1 (possible, but unnecessary);

In any case - all this is academic, unless you find a way to travel back in time some 26 years, and convince FASA to not include single heatsinks in their game, because just a couple years later, with the introduction of level 2 tech, they will be made obsolete.


MWO is a game set in the Battletech universe, with all the implications - weapons, their weight and crit requirements are set in stone, and cannot be altered.

[Anony Mouse]

Thirdstar, on 23 March 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

What? That's not what anyone's saying at all. Did you read the thread? You sound confused.

Actually its exactly on topic, removing single heat sinks entirely and why not. Did you read my entire post, you sound confused.

[Thirdstar]

Anony Mouse, on 23 March 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Actually its exactly on topic, removing single heat sinks entirely and why not. Did you read my entire post, you sound confused.

Ohkay

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

MWO is a game set in the Battletech universe, with all the implications - weapons, their weight and crit requirements are set in stone, and cannot be altered.

Are we playing the same game? Because I'm seeing plenty of alterations. Starting with double armor and working it's way through LRM/SRM damage and ECM.

[Spooky01]

I am using mechs with double heat sinks and find that i still have not got to my weight limit and have some spare slots, so why cant we use both? use the singles in the spare slots, after all its not our fault that our mech build is this way.

[Grayseven]

The problem boils down to the way heat dissipation is treated in this game versus how it was treated in the TT game. It would seem that the best answer to the problem isn't to remove SHS from the game but to look at the heat system as a whole and try to figure out what went wrong.

I'd like to say that certain builds could benefit from SHS but I'd be lying. Consider the follow CTF-4x build (for brevity, I'm just listing the pertinent systems):

250 XL engine
2x Gauss Rifle
2x ML
1x SRM4
DHS

Without any extra heat sinks the mech boasts a 1.58 heat efficiency, but the main weapons systems are very low heat and a high cycle time. DHS almost seems wasted here. However...

Replace the DHS with SHS and your heat efficiency drops to 1.12. To get back to a 1.58 Heat efficiency would require around 9 SHS above the original 10 from the engine. That's 9 tons and critical slots...

Most of us are more than willing to pay 1.5 million for 9 tons of weight savings and 9 crit slots, am I right?

Do you need a 1.58 HE in a dual Gauss mech? Not until the light mechs start circling you...

In my opinion, heat sinks are currently imbalanced in favor of the DHS making it a must own, but it doesn't look like an easy fix.

[Terror Teddy]

Thirdstar, on 23 March 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

So post one.

Why is this so hard? If you think there's a build that benefits more from SHS than it does from DHS, then post it.

Good lord, no need to get defensive.

Energy only XL engine Atlas. ERPPC X2 MPL X2. XL300 Engine.

Not a GOOD build by any stretch of the imagination but has internal tonnage space for aproximately 35 tonnes of heatsinks.
Even WITH DHS it would not have space for the additional 25 heatsinks since they take up too much internal space as DHS.

[qki]

Thirdstar, on 23 March 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Ohkay





Are we playing the same game? Because I'm seeing plenty of alterations. Starting with double armor and working it's way through LRM/SRM damage and ECM.

we are. Crit space requirements, and weight are set in stone.

As for double armour - that's to counteract the fact, that you can actually aim here, and with standard armour, gauss/ppc fire would be far too deadly.

[Wolfyop]

how about they buff engine SHS to 1.4? this way they will not be that painful, the reason DHS are so much good is because of engine HS 1.0 to 2.0.

Edited by Wolfyop, 23 March 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thirdstar, on 23 March 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

MWO Joe. That's what we're talking about. DHS are a straight upgrade in a vast majority of the cases. That's why the OP suggests a drastic solution of removing SHS entirely. I'd rather there be more heat balancing of course.

I am sure I can build a mech or two for MWO that would not Need dubs. Considering my back ground working Heavy Metal Pro (Mech lab program). I am sure I can make Mechs that do not need Dubs. In fact having them would be overkill!

[MuKen]

Terror Teddy, on 23 March 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

SHS do work on BALLISTIC mechs but mostly on the larger mechs.

MuKen, on 23 March 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Again, post one.

Terror Teddy, on 23 March 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

BUT - on larger mechs with FEW ENERGY WEAPONS that takes up few tonnage and space it's usually better to cram in many single heatsinks the way it's done now.

You're not answering the question. I was in a conversation with someone else who claimed they are good for ballistics since ballistics dont require much heat dissipation. You stepped in to support what he was saying for large mechs. I'm not sure how what you are saying now fits into this conversation.

Talking about large mechs with few energy weapons is not relevant to this discussion, and we are quite aware of the fact that is one of the niche cases where SHS does something DHS can't do better. I myself already posted a build for exactly that in this thread(which makes it even stranger that you're so hesitant to post builds for anything you say, seriously it takes less than 1 min to whip something up in smurfys).

I will repeat myself again (which I seem to be having to do a lot), there are only two times SHS does something DHS can't do better:

- you have a crap engine
- you have more than 18 SHS in your build (on top of the 10 base engine)

There are maybe 2-3 builds that aren't complete crap that you can make out of this, and they aren't exactly good builds either. That is not a basis for saying SHS and DHS are balanced.

Edited by MuKen, 23 March 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Krell Darkmoon]

As nice as DHS are they take 3 Crit Slots

SHS only take 1 Crit Slot

Once again basic math saves the day.

3 is more than 1

1 is less than 3

Cheers now you know the difference.

[Thirdstar]

Terror Teddy, on 23 March 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Good lord, no need to get defensive.

Energy only XL engine Atlas. ERPPC X2 MPL X2. XL300 Engine.

Not a GOOD build by any stretch of the imagination but has internal tonnage space for aproximately 35 tonnes of heatsinks.
Even WITH DHS it would not have space for the additional 25 heatsinks since they take up too much internal space as DHS.

That's.....that's an abomination!

Why would you possibly use that as an example?

You're yanking my chain now aren't you?

qki, on 23 March 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

we are. Crit space requirements, and weight are set in stone.

As for double armour - that's to counteract the fact, that you can actually aim here, and with standard armour, gauss/ppc fire would be far too deadly.

So not 'set in stone' like you previously stated. Glad that's all sorted out. Cheers.

Joseph Mallan, on 23 March 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

I am sure I can build a mech or two for MWO that would not Need dubs. Considering my back ground working Heavy Metal Pro (Mech lab program). I am sure I can make Mechs that do not need Dubs. In fact having them would be overkill!

Have at it. Please don't post something similar to what Terror Teddy did. It'll give me seizures.