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Hbk: Losing The Faith


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#1 Lyoncet

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

Like so many others, I bought a HBK-4SP as my first 'Mech. It's fine. Good, even. And I tend to like medium 'Mechs. Then I got a 4P so I could try laserboating, and a 4H so I could chunk people in the back all day. Good times.

But as I've looked at and played around with the Centurion, I've really started to lose my interest in the Hunchback (with some exceptions; more on that later). Generally, it seems that the Centurion does what the Hunchback does, but with small benefits. For example, the 4SP is great, yes. But let's compare it to the CN9-AL.

Pros:
One extra energy slot
Better energy articulation (on 2 of them, at least)
Missiles are spread between right and left torso, so both have to be removed to render you missile-less

That's literally all I can come up with.

Cons:
Much larger torsos, so the third Pro above actually doesn't really help that much if at all
Lower engine threshold
Half the zombie firepower
Much larger center torso means really only a fraction of the zombie power
Missiles are spread out between torsos instead of localized in one location (basically the CN9s have a built-in, weightless Artemis in comparison, that can also be given Artemis if you want)
Doesn't have the flexible "shield arm" that you can use to soak damage or save tonnage
No way in hell you can use an XL engine with it, which can work on the Centurion even if it's generally seen as sub-optimal

And the thing is, that's generally considered the best Hunchback out there. But it gets annihilated in a side-by-side comparison, unless I'm missing something(s).

Other variants don't have quite the same glaring problems when stacked up, but I still tend to find that a Centurion will usually do a Hunchback's job better. The one exception is if you don't want to spend money on the Yen-lo-Wang, and really want to mount an AC/20 on a medium. Then you have no choice. But, if you do, here's how the HBK-4H would stack up against it.

Pros:
Three extra energy hardpoints
Better articulation on 2 of the energy hardpoints
Autocannon is better protected

Cons:
Much smaller engine threshold
Worse articulation on the autocannon, which is the only reason you're running the 'Mech
Making use of the extra energy hardpoints means you don't have space for a decent engine or heatsinks along with enough ammo to feed the autocannon, so the first Pro doesn't even help much
The Autocannon is absolutey enormous, so the third Pro doesn't help much either
Same profile size and zombie ability problems as the earlier comparison
Unlike the above comparison, not only can you not realistically run an XL engine, you can't even fit an XL engine even if you wanted to, and if you did, you'd die instantly anyways

So... there's your side-by-side. I should note that if you want to run a smaller autocannon, the 4H is probably very good, because you can cram in the extra lasers and enough DHS to keep them running cool without sacrificing ammo or running such a small engine you turn yourself into a third of a Cataphract with a huge target painted on your shoulder.

Then there's also the CN9-A, which does missile-boating better than any Hunchback, and the CN9-D which has ridiculous speed. Also, The 9-A can mount the zombie lasers, the triple missiles, and still mount a small ballistics weapon. Or you can do it with one less missile slot on the 9-D and give it a huge (probably XL) engine. You can't do that on a Hunchback. That flexibility, coupled with the ways the Centurions outperform their most direct counterparts, just seems to doom most Hunchbacks. The HBK-4G just seems silly, since triple AC/2 (and all in one vulnerable torso tumor) doesn't seem like a smart way to play, and the HBK-4J is... well I guess it has a place if you want to run LRM 15-20. And it has 2 more energy hardpoints than the CN9-AL (which you can't use at the same time as 2 LRM 15 or LRM 20 anyways, so in that case, you'd do just as well in the AL or in a 4P).

Oh, and if you want to try a Gauss Rifle medium, you'd be crazy to try it on a Hunchback because one solid hit to the hunch would likely take out your engine.

Can anyone pick apart my critique here? I'm at 10 'Mechs now, and looking to sell some off to make room. Unless someone can point out some glaring oversight I'm making, I have pretty much no inclination to keep my 4-SP or 4-H. Still, general consensus seems to be that HBKs are great and CN9s are just a worse version. I just cannot for the life of me see it. All I can think of is maybe the Centurion is larger overall, but I don't think it's by much. Like, larger by the size of the head and shoulder fins. I suppose the right arm sticks out farther too, but it seems way easier to protect that than the Hunchback's hunch, and often goes unused anyways.



I should add that the one redemptive variant, in my opinion, is the HBK-4P, because nothing else in its class does laserboating quite like it does. And that's cool. I happen to like it, so I'll hang onto it. Then again, once the Blackjack BJ-3 or possibly BJ-1DB comes out, this'll probably start collecting dust. The Blackjack happens to be my favorite 'Mech. And also it has a better hardpoint configuration, with jumpjets, and while it's 5 tons lighter, it moves with its biggest engine (235) at the same speed as a Hunchback with its largest engine (260), which means it saves 2.5 tons on engine size if you run them at max speed after you add the extra heatsink. There's also the very real chance based on the concept art that it will have minuscule side torsos, so an XL would be a low-risk investment. So yeah. Eggs-in-a-basket laserboat with an extra 2.5 tons of space (oh, and 3 criticals because of the extra DHS in the engine)? Or superior articulation, superior spread, superior zombie ability, jump jets, and possibly the most viable medium XL build? Hmm, that's a tough one. :P

#2 slayerkdm

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

I kind of agree. I think the little tweaks have helped the Cents more. That being said, I like my HBK's better. Not saying they are better, but I like them better.

I will take my 4G over a Wang anytime in a fight, though I do like the Wang drivers. The SP, I agree, I think its glory days are over really. The Cent equivelent and now the Shotgun JM do it better I think.

I think the HBK's are more a mech of love than the top of the heap now. My HBK 4G is still my favorite mech, but I know its not the best medium out there, ok, it may be one of the bottom tiers even. Though I have to say, anything that mounts an AC20, can usually make a difference on the battlefield.

#3 Tryko

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

4SP was the first mech I bought (I'm a newb that started playing less than a week ago) and I absolutely love it. I can't really compare it to anything, but I don't see why 4SP is that worse than any Centurion. My build is endo-steel, std245, 15DHS, 5Mlas and 2 SRM6s with armor maxed everywhere but feet which have 1 point reduced each. I rarely am lower than place 3 in damage done and I rack up a kill here and there by using the standard brawling tactics suggested on forum. Sure, I get my sides blown very often, but losing one side is not enough to significantly impact my damage or gameplay in general (and I don't lose all my firepower like other hunchies either).

#4 NRP

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:03 PM

I don't know. Hunchbacks are still pretty formidable. As a heavy and assault driver, I respect Hunchbacks for their firepower, and I respect Centurions for their toughness. I have literally ran out of ammo trying to kill a Cent. Hunchbacks are pretty tough too, but it seems like Centurions just won't die.

#5 Jerod Drekmor

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:14 PM

View PostNRP, on 23 March 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I don't know. Hunchbacks are still pretty formidable. As a heavy and assault driver, I respect Hunchbacks for their firepower, and I respect Centurions for their toughness. I have literally ran out of ammo trying to kill a Cent. Hunchbacks are pretty tough too, but it seems like Centurions just won't die.


This! Its ****** me off so much...Its just cuz they use zombie cent and FF? or hit boxes are against me?

#6 Jabilo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:21 PM

Run the hunchback 4P with 8 medium lasers, 250 stnd, max armour (apart from legs) and as many double heat sinks as you can cram on.

It's totally bad arse. :)

I mastered three Hunchies when I first started playing and loved the 4SP.

I came back 15 mechs later to try the 4P and it is one of my favourite variants of anything ever.

Edited by Jabilo, 23 March 2013 - 04:22 PM.


#7 MoeX

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:40 PM

View PostJabilo, on 23 March 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Run the hunchback 4P with 8 medium lasers, 250 stnd, max armour (apart from legs) and as many double heat sinks as you can cram on.

It's totally bad arse. :)

I mastered three Hunchies when I first started playing and loved the 4SP.

I came back 15 mechs later to try the 4P and it is one of my favourite variants of anything ever.


One of my Favourites as well. But I run it with 7 SL and 2 ML. You have to get in Range, but the 7 SL deliver 21 Damage every 2.25 sec and cut through enemy mechs like a warm knife through butter.luv it!

#8 Hauser

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:35 PM

Having both, I tend to lose my gun arm on the centurion way before I lose a hunch on the hunchback. Most people I encountered know not to bother shooting at the shield arm and hold their shots. On the hunchback people lather their damage all over. The articulated arm lasers also help me to keep my torsos out of sight (use ctrl free-look for aiming). The few advantages they have weight heavily for me.

But it's mostly a matter personal preference. If you feel the cents are better, keep them!

#9 Kiiyor

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:00 PM

Not to mention the awesome torso twist range on the 4sp now.

It's like that chick from the exorcist, if she had missiles and lasers. If you're a dab hand with your 4 MLAS, you can out dps just about anything, as you vomit forth constant streams of coherent emerald light onto your targets, no matter where they are in relation to you.

#10 Sgt Disciple

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:28 PM

I avoided anything less than a heavy till recently. Been running the hbks and love it! 2lls 6mls and moving 92.7kph plus they just won't die. Love em!

#11 Hex Pallett

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:26 PM

For the 4SP vs AL, I think it comes down to the mindset. I have both of them and use them in entirely different purposes. For 4SP, I group LA lasers together, RA together and the missiles together (I don't use the head hardpoint), so the LMB fires left, RMB fires right and MMB for the punch. It works comfortably for my brain, but not so much on my AL. The two group of lasers just don't work in the same way, and it's a lot less enjoyable for my brain to process. Thus I have my AL armed with twin-LL in arm, 2xSSRM2 and 2xML in CT. That would be a much better mindset.

Also your weightless Artemis illusion is...illusion.

For the Wang vs 4H, well, your forgot Wang has the gun around waist level and 4H has it on the shoulder. That gives you the power to do cover popping. Also, sometimes you might just need the extra push of the three SLas.



With that all sait, despite the fact that it takes 20 years to kill a Centurion if you shoot it above the waist, is it just me or are Centurions much easier to be legged?

#12 AtomCore

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:49 AM

Since hotfix March 21th good chasis are: all cicadas, TBT-7K, TBT-5J, all hunchies, CN9-AL YEN-LO (due to ac20).
Others are crap. Centurions: 2 funny laserslots in CT + max ac10 in arm.

#13 Ken Fury

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:04 AM

My fiancee prefers the 4SP over the Cent-AL, while I do prefer the Cent-AL over the 4SP. It really comes down to which kind of hardpoint layout plays more to your playstyle.

#14 pencilboom

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:26 AM

View PostTank Boy Ken, on 24 March 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

My fiancee prefers the 4SP over the Cent-AL, while I do prefer the Cent-AL over the 4SP. It really comes down to which kind of hardpoint layout plays more to your playstyle.


your fiance plays mwo? holy **** dude...I wish I'm as lucky as you are.......

#15 Ezazel

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:13 AM

I've had both SP and AL. SP I still have and love it. I usually get good results with it. Cent AL I sold in disgust. For some reason it didn't perform for me as well as SP.

I think the difference comes from hard point layout. The dual med lasers in both hands, combined with good torso twist, allows to shoot very quickly and accurately. Like Helmsitf above I have mouse button 1 for left hand, mouse 2 for right and mouse 3 for missiles. On top of that I have a separate button for head laser. This setup allows me to fire my weapons in a flexible way around any cover and add missile punch when needed. SP is still a nice mech.

#16 Lord Ikka

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:18 AM

Well, I love my 4H with three medium lasers and an AC 20. Great second line brawler/mop up Mech, and the only Cent that can remotely br close is the YLW Hero. Both chassis are good, the Hunch seems more survivable overall while the Cent is a lot faster.

#17 Riktor Voshek

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:47 AM

Just one note: The Cent has had it's quirk pass and the Hunchback hasn't, so it's not quite a fair comparison between the chassis. Between the *current* state of the chassis, yes, but I'm curious what a quirk pass would bring to the Hunchie, particularly in the engine rating department.

#18 Jive Korsan

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:04 AM

While my love for the hunch hasn't died I find myself playing my favorite varient the 4SP much less but my 4P much more. I think it's cause I switched from small lasers to medium and the range lets me do things I couldn't before.

#19 Lyoncet

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

Hello again all, thank you for the replies! Having read through the community's thoughts, I think I'm just going to settle with the Centurion. Although the higher placement of the wapons on the Hunchback is something I'd overlooked, and quite useful; thank you Helmstif for pointing that out.

But Riktor Voshek brings up a great point. I didn't realize that the Hunchie is due for a quirk pass at some point. That, plus the Hunchbacks' better laser slots articulation, which in the last day of playing I found means more than I thought, means I'll be holding on to them for the moment. I may decide to bin the 4SP eventually, since I still find it a little underwhelming compared to Centurions in terms of power. That, and I just have a lot more fun with the CN9s. I think it must strike that perfect balance for me of speed and shotgun alpha strike damage, whereas the Hunchback seems to have a little too low of an engine threshold for me to pull off consistent backstabs. And it seems to need to carry a little too much weight to get the same blasty damage to run effectively with a larger engine anyways, plus the XL problems it has. So overall, maybe I still feel like it's not quite up to the Centurion's level, but the quirk could likely change that.

Just as a side note, was the Centurion's quirk the higher engine ratings? I assume it wasn't the small torso, because that's kind of a necessity of the design, or the twist, because it's not particularly good.

Also in answer to Helmstif's question about legging Centurions, I've been legged once as a Centurion in 40 matches, and never in over 150 Hunchback matches. So I'd say yeah, it's probably easier. The "hips" are bigger on the Cent, or at least seem to portrude more, so that probably has something to do with it.

I still do feel like I score more hits with the SRMs all coming out of one body segment on the 9-A than being spread out like on the 4SP, but then again it may just be my imagination, or my aim improving. Or even having all the weapons torso-mounted and ignoring the arm retricle altogether.

Edited by Lyoncet, 24 March 2013 - 01:57 PM.


#20 MordFustang

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:26 AM

I'm going for this, and it hasn't failed me yet:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7ab4a091168c855

Bind all lasers in pairs (large laser with large, medium with medium ofcourse) and use that brain-thingy to eliminate heat issues.

It's just about the most reliable mech I've tried and it's imo the perfect killshot-build.

You never run out of lasers to fire, meaning you can just cycle through the bindings on the same spot until that ******* goes down, and it packs one hell of a punch when it comes to alpha strike.

Downsides being that if you lose that shoulder you lose more than two thirds of your damage, and you need to hit the same spot. In other words: play smart and you're God.

Edited by Raserikuken, 25 March 2013 - 05:27 AM.






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