44 replies to this topic

[Iseul]

To start things off, I've put countless hours on a Raven 3L. I've put over 7 hours into the 3L alone since the new Stats page.

With a 4.21 KD Ratio, I want to say I'm a decent pilot on it.

So why am I bringing the 3L up in Game Balance?

I personally believe the 3L is optimized to perfectly to make any other light mech viable. What do I mean with this statement?

Take a look at the bread and butter 3L build.
RVN-3L

With this build the Raven is the perfect Scout, and has weapons suited for encircling larger mechs or hunting other lights. So why does this become an issue?

No other light mech can reach the speeds a Raven can, with ECM, with BAP, and with enough Firepower to make it viable.

Let's take a look at the closest attender. The Commando 2D.
COM-2D

A quick glance at a Commando and you'll realize it has quiet a few short comings compared to the Raven.

• It has 55 less overall armor making it easier to kill
  
• It's 7.6 KPH slower than a Raven making it impossible to out run one.
  
• You cannot include BAP without sacrificing more armor or weapons.
  
• Only has a maximum of 3 Module slots, compared to the Ravens 4.

These are the same reoccurring problems with any of the contenders. The only area where a Raven 3L is not considered the absolute best pick would be in player made rules.

For example, the Marik Campaign where it was decided certain battles will be held with no ECM.


So with all the problems noted, I'd like to throw in a possible solution.

Make the Raven 3L slower. Both of the other Raven variants can only reach a top speed of 124.7 KPH. Why was this certain variant blessed with an engine 4 tons heavier, yet still become ECM capable. If the top speed was toned down to 140 KPH, It will still retain high speeds. Yet it'll give it's other less armored counterparts a chance to either stay and fight or run.

I believe it'll make enough of an impact that other light mechs will become possible choices.

For those of you who stuck through this long and arduous post, I thank you. I hope to see some constructive feedback, and other possible balance tweaks.

Edited by Iseul, 23 March 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[focuspark]

First, I hate the RVN-3L and all who pilot it.

RVN had its hit boxes fixed. Much easier to leg now.

SSRM have been nerf'd significantly.

ECM is OP, but that's not RVN-3L specific. Remove or nerf ECM and the RVN-3L is on par with other mechs.

Um... FYI: a 4+ KDR is a sign of abusing an OP mech design.

Edited by focuspark, 23 March 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[Dephylr]

I'm not too familiar with lights but am glad someone decided to take an objective look at lights and recognize an issue. I did always wonder why i see ravens about 75% of the time though and 90% of the time being the 3l. They did make them a bit easier to hit with this patch so perhaps in the future they will work on buffing the stats of others lights or a small nerf to the 3l.

[LegoPirate]

the jenner f is perfectly capable of going toe to toe with a 3l after the streak nerf. as far as ecm utility thats a general ecm issue and not a 3l specific problem.

[SPencil]

Iseul, on 23 March 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

...

No other light mech can reach the speeds a Raven can, with ECM, with BAP, and with enough Firepower to make it viable.

...

You do know that a Jenner or a Spider can move faster then the -3L, right?...just felt I needed to bring that up.

The role I'd most associate with the generic -3L build is a light hunter, at which it is very proficient. Any light mech packing SSRMs do light hunting well (pilot skill is a factor though). I wouldn't go so far to call it the perfect scout though. If one of them had ECM I'd give that title to the Jenner. Either way, it depends on the pilot and what you're looking for in a scout.

A Jenner can pack the most weapons, the Commando can use more missiles, the Spider is excellent at jumping, and the Raven seems to try and find the balance between the other three. I've only used a Raven once, and that was waaaaaaaaaay back in closed beta, so I couldn't really say anything about them.

My light mech of choice is the Spider (you can probably tell), since I love the mobility the jumpjets afford it, and the combat advantages it gives when used correctly. My only beef with the Raven-3L (and the Commando-2D) is that the best counter for them is another -3L or -2D. I'm oversimplifying but that's the general idea, that there is a distinct lack of diverse counters for them.

[Corvus Antaka]

remove the raven 3L missile tubes.

or cut the engine rating to a 220/245.

problem solved.

its the combo of the hitbox, the ecm, the ssrm2 and the top engine rating that make this mech completely OP.

imho curbing the engine rating and removing 1 missile hardpoint and assigning a faster engine to the 2X would make all ravens viable again and balance the 3L

[Falconic]

I have commented before about 3Ls being beast machine when used by the right pilots. Well since the patch to fix the hit boxes and the patch to fix SRMs I can honestly say... I still get killed by 3Ls right and left. I'm not entirely sure why I cant shoot the little Explicit. I'm not sure how he is tearing my CT to shreds like a overweight kid on cake. I don't like it! However, I'm fairly sure I have made many a slower mech than my Cicadas say the same thing. I will never defend the 3L and its cake eater pilots, but I'm glad someone out there has a hard counter for my shenanigans.

[Hotthedd]

The RVN-3L and COM-2D both enjoy the broken mechanic of ECM+SSRMs, that is all. Have ECM interfere with the ability to shoot SSRMs and the problem is essentially solved. Give every Raven, Commando, Cicada, and Spider variant the ability to equip ECM and the battlefield will equalize.

[Kmieciu]

With the speed being capped at 150 kph Commando and Spider are at a disadvantage. If the Spider was capable of reaching 175 kph and the Commando about 200 kph, then they both would be worth using IMHO.

[qki]

Nah - the commie is fine. Last game I got 2 kills with mine, running the standard 150 engine (97 kph).

[Iseul]

focuspark, on 23 March 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

First, I hate the RVN-3L and all who pilot it.

RVN had its hit boxes fixed. Much easier to leg now.

SSRM have been nerf'd significantly.

ECM is OP, but that's not RVN-3L specific. Remove or nerf ECM and the RVN-3L is on par with other mechs.

Um... FYI: a 4+ KDR is a sign of abusing an OP mech design.

Hope you understand that the 'Hotfix' Paul mentioned was temporary. Many of you seem to miss the text at the bottom and just go '**** SRM/LRM nerf' or 'Yay about ******* time'.

You're just going back to the 'ECM OP' redundancy. I'm so tired of seeing that in any post made about the 3L. If you had a Spider 5D with ECM you wouldn't go 'ECM OP'. It's the fact that Ravens have ECM, have Streaks, 3 medium lasers, while running at 150KPH.

PGI Already mentioned ECM balancing won't be on the table for a long ways to come.

Hope you're kidding about 4+ KD is abusing mech design. I have plenty of other mechs with higher KD's then I do with the Raven. Some people out there have higher overall KD's than I do with a single mech I specialize in.

SPencil, on 24 March 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

You do know that a Jenner or a Spider can move faster then the -3L, right?...just felt I needed to bring that up.

The role I'd most associate with the generic -3L build is a light hunter, at which it is very proficient. Any light mech packing SSRMs do light hunting well (pilot skill is a factor though). I wouldn't go so far to call it the perfect scout though. If one of them had ECM I'd give that title to the Jenner. Either way, it depends on the pilot and what you're looking for in a scout.

A Jenner can pack the most weapons, the Commando can use more missiles, the Spider is excellent at jumping, and the Raven seems to try and find the balance between the other three. I've only used a Raven once, and that was waaaaaaaaaay back in closed beta, so I couldn't really say anything about them.

My light mech of choice is the Spider (you can probably tell), since I love the mobility the jumpjets afford it, and the combat advantages it gives when used correctly. My only beef with the Raven-3L (and the Commando-2D) is that the best counter for them is another -3L or -2D. I'm oversimplifying but that's the general idea, that there is a distinct lack of diverse counters for them.

Regarding your 'Jenner and Spider' are faster comment. They are faster by 2KPH. How far can they run with 2KPH? Especially when you have a Raven on your 6 constantly firing streaks.

You're also adding in 'if's'. IF the Jenner had ECM, of course it would be on top. It would go 152.7 KPH with 4 Medium Lasers, 2 Streaks, and jump jets.

So breaking it down, you said it yourself. The best and only counter to a 3L or a 2D is another one. Why is that?

It's because of:

• ECM
  
• Streaks
  
• Speed

ECM as mentioned earlier won't have a fix any time soon. If there even will be a 'fix' for it.


Streaks are working as intended.

The Raven is too fast for everything it offers.

At least the Commando can only go 142.6 KPH with it's Streak+ECM build. So that's where my argument is. To bring down the speed of the Ravens 150 to a comparable 140. That way even Spiders and Jenners can go head to head, or run from constant Streak fire.

Edited by Iseul, 24 March 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[DTheSleepless]

Give the raised engine cap to the 2X from the 3L, the 2X has enough problems and would at least give it something unique.

[DTheSleepless]

Also, important point: one of the major problems with the 3L that nobody talks about is that the 3L is about the only thing that keeps the COM-2D in check. The COM-2D has paper mache armor, true, but he was arguably the best light hunter in the game by a healthy margin before ECM came into being.

EDIT: My point is that if you nerf the 3L, all the easymode pilots will just pick the 2D to ruin everyone's fun with.

Edited by DTheSleepless, 25 March 2013 - 12:33 AM.

[focuspark]

Iseul, on 24 March 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Many of you seem to miss the text at the bottom and just go '**** SRM/LRM nerf' or 'Yay about ******* time'.

You're just going back to the 'ECM OP' redundancy. I'm so tired of seeing that in any post made about the 3L. If you had a Spider 5D with ECM you wouldn't go 'ECM OP'. It's the fact that Ravens have ECM, have Streaks, 3 medium lasers, while running at 150KPH.

PGI Already mentioned ECM balancing won't be on the table for a long ways to come.

Hope you're kidding about 4+ KD is abusing mech design. I have plenty of other mechs with higher KD's then I do with the Raven. Some people out there have higher overall KD's than I do with a single mech I specialize in.

Regarding your 'Jenner and Spider' are faster comment. They are faster by 2KPH. How far can they run with 2KPH? Especially when you have a Raven on your 6 constantly firing streaks.

You're also adding in 'if's'. IF the Jenner had ECM, of course it would be on top. It would go 152.7 KPH with 4 Medium Lasers, 2 Streaks, and jump jets.

So breaking it down, you said it yourself. The best and only counter to a 3L or a 2D is another one. Why is that?

It's because of:

• ECM
  
• Streaks
  
• Speed

ECM as mentioned earlier won't have a fix any time soon. If there even will be a 'fix' for it.

Streaks are working as intended.

The Raven is too fast for everything it offers.

At least the Commando can only go 142.6 KPH with it's Streak+ECM build. So that's where my argument is. To bring down the speed of the Ravens 150 to a comparable 140. That way even Spiders and Jenners can go head to head, or run from constant Streak fire.

What the hell are you on about? My defense of Ravens was because SSRM took the nerf back, if in fact you're right and SSRM are coming back to 5 damage per volley, then Ravens seriously need the nerf bat. AND YES, ECM is over powered and I really do not give a **** about what PGI has to say about it. Pretty much proven they cannot balance this game or understand how to make a proper MMO to save their lives. Yes I still play it because it's fun to shoot walking tanks from walking tanks, but the game is not even marginally balanced.

There's a clear line of acention among light mechs with RVN-3L > COM-2D > SPD-5D > Jenner > Raven > Command > Spider, with the ECM carrying mechs way out in front. That's a completely ****** up design.

The RVN-3L and COM-2D are significantly over powered because they can mount SSRM which are a completely ****** design: no skill, never miss, ****-poor designed, monstrosities. Which are only blocked by ECM but ECM carrying mechs can block ECM with ECCM... such a ****** up arms race design to game design.

[Deathlike]

focuspark, on 25 March 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

There's a clear line of acention among light mechs with RVN-3L > COM-2D > SPD-5D > Jenner > Raven > Command > Spider, with the ECM carrying mechs way out in front. That's a completely ****** up design.

I'd actually move the Jenner and the Spider-5D around, but otherwise it's pretty much correct.

[focuspark]

Deathlike, on 25 March 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

I'd actually move the Jenner and the Spider-5D around, but otherwise it's pretty much correct.

Yes, unless SSRM have been brought to the party in which case the Jenner ends up with no CT quickly.

[Deathlike]

focuspark, on 25 March 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Yes, unless SSRM have been brought to the party in which case the Jenner ends up with no CT quickly.

At this point in the game, a veteran Jenner pilot would not be using Streaks, but would instead be using SRMs.

I simply don't fear the ECM mech that has the least potential of doing damage (well, it's not the Spider-5K bad).

[Mothykins]

Sadly, everyone will continue to have a hate-on for the 3L because it is good. When it's used as a one on one hunter to take out other lights, yeah, it's quite intimidating. The problem is not so much the 3L as it is so many light mech pilots deciding to go play the hero, running off and getting tied up with a 3L, getting themselves shot to bits, then getting annihilated when the Ravens teammates come over the ridge.

Ravens are easily countered simply by sticking in groups (You should be doing this anyways) - One on one, yes, they are scary, but add another mech to the mix and the 3L is in trouble. If you're in a group, in order to get hits in they need to get close to everyone. This usually results in a dead bird.

As for One on One, a Jenner will usually shred a Raven given half a chance (I've had this happen enough to have something of a dislike for the little ********.)

Simpler yet, pick them off at range - PPCs tend to kill things, you know?

[Cyke]

Cavale, on 25 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Ravens are easily countered simply by sticking in groups (You should be doing this anyways) - One on one, yes, they are scary, but add another mech to the mix and the 3L is in trouble. If you're in a group, in order to get hits in they need to get close to everyone. This usually results in a dead bird.

Nothing you say here is untrue, but what stops the RVN-3Ls from likewise working in groups?

[focuspark]

Cyke, on 25 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Nothing you say here is untrue, but what stops the RVN-3Ls from likewise working in groups?

I do believe a "group" or Ravens is known as a "flock" and they usually come in 3-5 all on TeamSpeak.